Steve, with all the renewed interest in Mono Pressings have you though about ...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by TommyTunes, Jan 15, 2002.

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  1. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member Thread Starter

    Give the exposure that even a cartridge like the helicon mono has been given, have you thought about reissuing some of the mono mixes of some classic LP's. Things along the line of Cream's Fresh Cream, Zombie's Oddesey and Oracle, Tull's This Was etc's. I think that in addition to audiophiles there would be interest from general record collectors.
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Thinking about the whole interesting situation.

    Pointless to play back a mono album with a mono cart, if the LP was cut with a stereo tip. Wouldn't mean a thing.

    We would have to use the dreaded Bernie/Len Horowitz special...
     
  3. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    Steve, can you elaborate on this a bit? I was really interested in the thread that was going on the DCC forum. What are the pros and cons of using the "dreaded" mono cutter? How were things done back in the day?

    And what about mono CDs or mono hi-rez?
     
  4. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Thinking out of my head here - no problem if you disagree: welcome your coments if you do.

    For us audiophiles (meaning ME) that really couldn't afford to set up an independent high quality mono rig using all the appropriate equipment, wouldn't the standard red book CD be capable of producing, with adequate to very good results, a decent replication of mono mixes? The format doesn't carry the downfalls of playing mono vinyl sources on a stereo rig, has adequate frequency response and dynamic range - and (IMHO) may be more than adequate to release this material.

    With all of the high rez digital options these days, from DAD to DVD-A to SACD - wouldn't high rez mono be ..... just a waste? At very least given the limits of "historical" (i.e. - pre 1970 - man does that make me feel old) recordings.....

    Discuss amongst yourselves.
     
  5. AudioGirl

    AudioGirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Steve,

    Please elaborate... "the dreaded Bernie... :confused:

    I think I feel a story coming on :D

    THANKS!
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Well, let's see. In order to cut a mono LP, you need a mono tape to cut. That's about it. Tonality stays the same no matter if you use a stereo tip or a mono tip to cut or playback, if you do it right....

    So, the deal is that the current "trend" is to use a dedicated mono cart & table to play back those (pretty average sounding, IMO) old mono LP's from 1949-68.

    Fine and good, if you can afford it. The interesting EQ of the mono tip will add a different dimension to your playback. Whether it's a good or bad dimension depends on the sound of each original LP.

    With me? OK. Now, Classic Records is adapting a Len Horowitz cutting system from 1952 to recut some Blue Note Jazz LP's. I'm sure Bernie G. isn't too happy about doing the cutting with this old stuff, but, as Daffy Duck would say "Eh, It's a living".

    Nothing wrong with cutting an LP with an old mono playback amp and cutter, but tonality will suffer. It HAS to, or else ALL cutting rooms would still use this stuff. I mean, I love old gear, but I wouldn't cut a record using an old tube amp, or tape recorder. Doesn't make sense to limit bandwidth like that just to get a vintage sound. Who wants a vintage sound? Might as well just enjoy our old records.

    On the other hand, I've cut many a mono record with Kevin Gray, and we always use a stereo tip. Of course we play back the tape in mono, but nothing else changes in the system. Why would it? The tonality of a stereo and mono mix of the same thing done by the same guy and the same room (if the gear or mix style hasn't been changed) is the same. Why make the mono cut an antique sounding thing, while leaving the stereo version "full range"? Silly.

    When you play back a mono record with a stereo cart, you must mono it out (L+R) for best result. In other words, combine the left and right channels into mono, to cut out all the lateral groove noise. After all there is no music in the lateral groove, 'cause it's mono, so it can be "cancelled out" by combining the channels. If the mono signal has been cut PROPERLY, this will sound great.

    Now, for those of you who dig stereo groove noise, leave your playback in stereo. Sometimes I listen to stereo groove noise to judge if my system is playing back everything correctly. The groove noise is kind of like pink noise. It should be balanced...

    I better stop now. I'm pooped.
     
  7. AudioGirl

    AudioGirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Wow!

    Now that's what I call elaborating...

    I especially like the Daffy Duck reference... 'as Daffy Duck would say "Eh, It's a living". '

    :D

    Thanks Steve!
     
  8. Patrick M

    Patrick M Subgenius

    Location:
    US
    Thanks, Steve. And now the follow up questions:

    What's the advantage of playing a mono record with a mono cartridge? I mean, there has to be something there, right, or people wouldn't drop $2k on a Helikon. (Or would they...)

    How were things done originally? That is, would all mono LPs have been cut in mono?

    What are the different mono styli geometries, and how do these figure in?

    Couldn't you get a modern mono cutting system custom-built? Or do you not see any reason to pursue this?
     
  9. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Eh, I believe it was Bugs Bunny who said that!
     
  10. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    I'm not going to pass any verdict on the Classic Records "mono" releases until I get a chance to listen to one of them (maybe the Miles one that was just released). I think Steve has a very valid point about it being limiting to use an antique mono cutting system that will cut choices (Bernie ya hands are tied) of dynamic range and be happier with mono carts (my stereo cart will try to be friendly). As with a lot of choices Classic Records make a lot of it is marketing hype (The special "RTI" vinyl formulation, etc.). I wonder if anyone will try to flog these off as Blue Note originals (age them a little...) to any unsuspecting dealers or Ebay'ers. It could throw the whole "collectors" world into a mess (something like $2,500 for Morgan's "Candy"). I'm glad these titles are being released (for da music) and I hope they make the grade sound wise...

    Todd
     
  11. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member Thread Starter

    Hey Steve, I think you may have missed my point, I just would like to get my grubby hands on mint copies of the mono versions of some classic LP's. By all means use a stereo cutting head or even put them on SACD(please). I just get off on those alternate mixes (but I think you kinda guested it by now).
     
  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Grant,

    Stupid to go on about this, but remember the WB cartoon with Bugs and Daffy up the beanstock? Bugs escapes, but Daffy ends up as the hands on the giant's watch. When the big Elmer opens his watch, Daffy goes: "Tick, tick, tick, eh, it's a living".

    TommyTunes,

    To answer your original question, yes we have thought about it. We have one or two killer monos in mind. Stay tuned.;)
     
  13. GMav

    GMav Senior Member

    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    While we are on the subject of Mono recordings (which I like, by the way), I am sure that most people here have noticed on the mono release of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, there appears to be an editing error in the crossfade between the opening song and With A Little Help From My Friends.

    Also, I remember reading an article with Tim Ott from Goldmine about the possibility of Pepper being issued in a limited edition box set CD a few years back......in GLORIOUS mono. Very interesting article. Another web site has a reprint of the article and a color photo of what the set would have looked like.

    I WISH..............
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Patrick,

    Very quickly, 'cause this is a discussion only for the very rich folk who can afford two turntable systems, the Helikon grabs SOME of the mono grooves better on old records, depending on what cutter head was used originally. It's not shaped like a stereo eliptical, because it doesn't have to worry about the stereo information, so it can grab the somewhat funkier groove cuttings of the old out of date mono cutters. It cannot be used on a stereo recording. It will rip the groove to shreds. Don't try it!

    All mono LP's were cut with mono cutting heads until the early 1970's, when the old mono junk was purged from studios. Then, the stereo head took over for everything.

    No need to have a modern cutting system built. There is no sonic advantage to this, and you would have to have a dedicated playback system for these records (or why bother?)
     
  15. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    GregMav, that was no accident. They edied it just the way they wanted.

    Steve, I recall end of one cartoon where Bugs was stamping "DUD" on bombs and sarcastically saying the sentence.
     
  16. FabFourFan

    FabFourFan Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Hey, didn't you mean to say VERTICAL rather than LATERAL?

    In other words, it's the 'common' signal which is cut laterally, and it's the 'difference' signal which is cut vertically, right?

    And because there is no 'difference' information in a mono signal (that's precisely what makes it a mono signal), there should be no vertical information in the groove if the mono signal has been cut PROPERLY, as you stated.
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Yes, I meant vertical. I was just in a hurry. Thanks for the catch!
     
  18. Jimbo

    Jimbo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Zero/Zero Island
    Grant: I think you're mixing up two cartoons. While stamping the "duds" Bugs says something like "just think, 99 more years and I can retire."
     
  19. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    OK, Jim. But I do recall that in some cartoon BUGS says this. It must have been a popular saying in the 40's and 50s.
     
  20. J Epstein

    J Epstein Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Steve Hoffman wrote:

    Steve, I recently got a large (1 mil elliptical) Grado replacement stylus, put it in a Grado Signature, tied the two hot pins together, and set up a dedicated mono arm wand with this cartridge. Not a huge expenditure, BTW - the stylus was $80 and I had the body (with a bent cantilever) already for years. The Helikon Mono is out of my league.

    I haven't done too much with it yet but after a quick listen I was left with the impression that some of my "transition era" monos - like 1966 Blonde On Blonde, for example, were not improved by using this setup over a conventional stereo cart switched into mono. I drew the conclusion that they were already being cut with a small, stereo cutting stylus setup. Am I wrong? In which case maybe previous-owner-wear is the culprit - my mono Blonde On Blonde is rather beat, for example.

    RCA Victor Red Seal monos from the 50's were definitely better with the 1 mil stylus.

    How can I tell the groove width by looking? If I magnify it with, say, a 10X loupe, will I be able to learn how to tell?

    I had made the assumption that, if it said "mono" on the label, it was from the transition era and was probably narrow groove. What you are saying leads me to think I am wrong.

    BTW, I assume you didn't really mean it when you said "mono junk."

    -j
     
  21. whoompley

    whoompley Senior Member

    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    So, would our early 1980's mono Beatles reissues sound better with one of these old-fangled styli? I hope not, I'm not much of a tweaker.

    The other Wes
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You know, I'm not an expert on such things. I have been using a stereo stylus to play all mono and stereo records since I was a kid. But, the middle 1960's mono stuff could have been recut with a stereo tip at some studios. I don't really know.

    Bring your albums down to the lathe at AcousTech and we will look through the microscope (har har). Kevin could tell.

    "mono junk." Yes I was kidding. But, the cutting engineers in 1969 couldn't wait to get that stuff out of their little cutting rooms. Taking up space and collecting dust. The new German stuff looked so much better to them. (And the solid state German amps gave off less heat then those bad old tube amps. Tee hee.)

    Regarding the Grado, here's the deal. We have no idea what exact type of styli each individual LP was cut with back in the 1950's, and they can be so different from each other in sound, that I can't see how using a mono tip would actually help, unless the record itself is worn in a CERTAIN way, and the thicker tip might help that (or the other way around).

    I use a conical tip to play back 45's that were pressed on sti-reen (the devil), because my stereo tip will cut its own groove right on the record. The Shure conical's were used in radio in the middle 1960's and later to save on record wear do to so much back-cueing that they had to endure. The conical hits a different part of the groove, higher up, and the sound is slightly less hi-fi (imo).

    So, what have we learned? IMO, if you play an LP from 1955 (late) or older, mono or stereo--- a good stereo MM needle, like a Shure V15 type whatever, will sound just fine. Be sure (Shure) to play back the monos in mono.....

    As for the Beatles mono repressings of the late 1980's, I believe they were pressed from the original mono stampers (they sure sound like it), but who knows what type of mono tip that the cutting engineer (Harry Moss, wasn't it, who wore the white coat and school tie) used? The groove on "Pepper" for example is sooooo tiny, I think a stereo tip would sound better.
     
  23. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    I use a stereo stylus on stereo and mono LP's and 45's as well, Steve. It sounds good to me as well and I'm not an expert on such things as what's being discussed in this thread either. I go by what sounds good to me and by the way.
     
  24. Sgt Pepper and Bugs Bunny (not in cahoots)

    Greg - I prefer the mono Sgt Pepper _except_
    where the chicken turns into the guitar, the edit is simply breathtaking in stereo, sounds clunky on the mono one.
    The phased, wobbly part on the end of Lucy is super cool on the mono one, as is the phased sitar on Within You . . .

    Grant - my wife says she remembers the dud-bomb cartoon too (laughing).
     
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