Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt6)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Feb 25, 2014.

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  1. bootbox

    bootbox Forum Resident

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    Fort Wayne, IN
    My 33rpm copy of True Blue has intro groove problems on both sides, the needle doesn't drop in until a few rotations into each side, playing muffled until it does. I'm sure they'll fix me up and I have the others from this series with no issues, so no big deal.

    I have the Connoisseur series reissue of the album from Blue Note and it's not even in the same ballpark with what Music Matters has done here (the parts after the first few grooves, that is) ;)
     
  2. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    ORG's Mingus Ah Um! is spectacular!!! You should try their Duke Ellington Blues In Orbit. That one even outdoes Mingus Ah Um!
     
  3. buzzlulu

    buzzlulu Forum Resident

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    I have the Classic Records version of Mingus Ah Um! (33) - how does the ORG compare?
     
  4. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    It's all about tape! tape! tape! Those RVG tapes are one One Flight Up above everything else out there. No getting around this fact.
     
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  5. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    Honestly, I don't have the classic version but I'd be willing to say it doesn't come anywhere near the ORG just based on my other classic records Columbia 33s. The ORG Mingus is so rich, natural and relax sounding, the very epitome of everything 45rpm is supposed to well. You will feel guttural excitement the moment you drop the needle on it. If you like Mingus Ah Um! You don't wanna miss out on the definitive version of it.
     
  6. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    I believe I did so in my post. Flat transfer. No tweaking, no processing. The most transparent unaltered transfer of the signal off the master tape.



    If you are refering to the original LPs it's pretty clear they would not pass any sort of purist muster. This is what those LPs went through in the mastering process:

    "All cutting engineers of that time used the same basic strategy for this, but this was Van Gelder's:

    Compress/limit 3:1
    Filter at 10k and 50 cycles
    5db Boost at 5k (what we in the biz call "fake treble".)
    5db Boost at 1k for "presence".
    (Sometimes also at 150 cycles for "fake" bass)."

    Steve himself has done it with many recordings. It's been done with any number of titles from audiophile labels that produce original material. Sheffield Labs, Reference Recordings, Performance Recordings, Waterlilly, Wilson Audio...heck even the original Mercury Living Presence were cut flat from the master tapes. That was back in the 50s.



    It would seem their agenda was to put out the most realistic and aesthetically pleasing versions of the recordings as they possibly could. Steve talks a little bit about some of the mastering moves he made when they did the MM 45 rpm LPs

    The choices were to make a loud record where the music could be heard over the surface noise and be able to be tracked without skipping on the problematic turntables of the day.

    (in regards to the original Blue Note LPs) "All cutting engineers of that time used the same basic strategy for this, but this was Van Gelder's:

    Compress/limit 3:1
    Filter at 10k and 50 cycles
    5db Boost at 5k (what we in the biz call "fake treble".)
    5db Boost at 1k for "presence".
    (Sometimes also at 150 cycles for "fake" bass)."

    "Well, please note that when I worked on the Blue Note stuff I did a little of the above to it as well. Had to, the old Ampex recorders were very "soft" sounding and the music "presence" would just vanish if played straight.

    A good mastering engineer knows when to back off the buttons though.. Too much and the illusion of life is spoiled. Not enough and the recording just lays there."

    "It amazes me every time that Kevin threads up a BLUE NOTE master tape and lets it roll at how much better the tape sounds than any CD or LP of this material out there. I mean, SO MUCH BETTER! Do other mastering engineers working on Blue Note material crank up the treble and shave off the bass because they like that sound? Most Blue Note releases both digital and analog give me a giant headache. One would think that this is the "sound" of a Rudy Van Gelder Blue Note master (I used to think so) but it isn't, my friends, it ISN'T! These master tapes sound full, rich, warm and brimming with lifelike ambiance and coolness. They just need a slight "coax" to shine when we cut to 45 RPM. Trust me, they rule.


    I did not say "accuracy of the master tape." I said accuracy to the master tape.
     
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  7. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    You are hiding behind Hoffman quotes to make yourself untouchable and yet it seems Hoffman does not share your sentiments as the mastering notes above indicate; if he's doing all those tweaking on the mastering notes you quote then he is not much of a pure xfer guy.

    Unless you are getting your info about how these records are mastered from Ron Rambach and Kevin Gray then neither you nor anyone else on this forum can say what type xfer they are doing.

    This discussion is pointless because you've already admitted that you like these records. So what is your agenda by talking down on something you admittedly like?

    If you are buying them they must be doing right by you otherwise I'd just assume you're tossing out these grenades cuz you want to talk for the sake of talking
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  8. JMCIII

    JMCIII Music lover first, audiophile second.


    This is the only way of dispensing with this discussion - asking Ron, Joe or Kevin. Only they know for sure.
     
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  9. vinyltimm

    vinyltimm Forum Resident

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    My copy of Soul Station had this issue as well. Also has some light scuffs and noise here and there. It's heading back Elusive Disk all will be swapped for another copy.
    At the same time I purchased Blue Train and Idle Moments and they were perfect and quiet. Really wonderful sounding pressings--I'll be buying more.
     
  10. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    I'm quoting one of the guys who mastered the 45rpm MM reissues. That isn't hiding behind anything. That's called informing. If you have an issue with the information Steve has provided us with how the 45rpm MM reissues were mastered then I suggest you take it up with him. I see no reason to doubt his word on how he did his job

    I haven't "talked down" anything. I am simply correcting misinformation


    I am quite happy with how they sound. All I am doing is correcting misinformation about how they are made. Not sure how relevant and accurate information is a "grenade toss." If you have any actual facts that contradict my facts then get back to us on the subject.
     
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  11. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    this thread is about the 45 rpm series as well as the 33 rpm series. Steve Hoffman was very involved in the mastering of that series. Do you think he is an unreliable source on how those LPs were mastered?
     
  12. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    You are still hiding behind Hoffman.

    For your info Hoffman has not been involved with MM since 2009, so that makes him an expert on about 10 or 12 titles in the series out of 112 45 titles. That means Hoffman was not involved on the other 100 titles.

    I don't have any facts, neither do you. The facts will have to come from Rambach, Gray or Harley, until you or I get the definitive fact from those three guys, this discussion is purely conjecture.

    Waste of time until then...
     
  13. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    No, I am posting facts.

    So this is not accurate?
    http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-musicmatters.html

    Music Matters, Ltd.Recordings mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray.
    Music Matters MMBST-84049 2 LP Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers A Night In Tunisia
    Info

    Music Matters MMBST-4193 2 LP Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers Indestructible
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84245 2 LP Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers Like Somewhere In Love
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84029 2 LP Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers The Big Beat Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84052 2 LP Tina Brooks Back To The Tracks Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84041 2 LP Tina Brooks True Blue Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1526 2 LP Clifford Brown Clifford Brown Memorial Album Info
    Music Matters MMGFX-3057 2 LP Kenny Burrell Freedom
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84019 2 LP Donald Byrd Byrd In Hand Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84026 2 LP Donald Byrd Fuego
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84075 2 LP Donald Byrd The Cat Walk Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-1564 2 LP Paul Chambers Paul Chambers Quintet Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1588 2 LP Sonny Clark Cool Struttin' Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84091 2 LP Sonny Clark Leapin' And Lopin' Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1576 2 LP Sonny Clark Sonny's Crib
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84144 2 LP Johnny Coles Little Johnny C Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84163 2 LP Eric Dolphy Out To Lunch Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84012 2 LP Lou Donaldson With The 3 Sounds LD+3 Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1591 2 LP Lou Donaldson Lou Takes Off
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1535 2 LP Kenny Dorham Afro-Cuban
    Music Matters
    MMBLP-1524 2 LP Kenny Dorham 'Round About Midnight At The Cafe Bohemia Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84059 2 LP Kenny Drew Undercurrent Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-1567 2 LP Curtis Fuller The Opener Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84077 2 LP Dexter Gordon Doin' Allright Info
    Music Matters MMBST-4133 2 LP Dexter Gordon A Swingin' Affair
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84204 2 LP Dexter Gordon Gettin' Around Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84442 2 LP Grant Green Matador Info
    Music Matters LT-990 2 LP Grant Green Solid Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84183 2 LP Grant Green Talkin' About Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1559 2 LP Johnny Griffin A Blowing Session
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1580 2 LP Johnny Griffin The Congregation
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84189 2 LP Joe Henderson Inner Urge Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84152 2 LP Joe Henderson Our Thing Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84167 2 LP Andrew Hill Point Of Departure Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84135 2 LP Freddie Hubbard Here To Stay Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84040 2 LP Freddie Hubbard Open Sesame Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84231 2 LP Bobby Hutcherson Happenings
    Music Matters
    MMBLP-1573 2 LP John Jenkins & Kenny Burrell John Jenkins With Kenny Burrell Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84369 2 LP Elvin Jones Genesis
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84282 2 LP Elvin Jones Puttin' Together
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1527 2 LP Thad Jones The Magnificent Thad Jones
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1582 2 LP Cliff Jordan Cliff Craft
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84153 2 LP Grachan Mancur III Evolution
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84067 2 LP Jackie McLean Bluesnick Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84165 2 LP Jackie McLean Destination Out
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84024 2 LP Jackie McLean Swing, Swang, Swingin' Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-1517 2 LP Gil Melle Patterns In Jazz Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1560 2 LP Hank Mobley Hank
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84058 2 LP Hank Mobley Roll Call Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-1568 2 LP Hank Mobley Sextet Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84031 2 LP Hank Mobley Soul Station Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-5066 2 LP Hank Mobley The Hank Mobley Quartet
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1550 2 LP Hank Mobley The Quintet
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1536 2 LP J.R. Monterose Monterose, J.R.
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1590 2 LP Lee Morgan Candy Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1538 2 LP Lee Morgan Indeed!
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84169 2 LP Lee Morgan Search For The New Land Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1578 2 LP Lee Morgan The Cooker
    Music Matters
    MMBST-4212 2 LP Lee Morgan The Gigolo
    Music Matters
    MMBST-1058 2 LP Lee Morgan Tom Cat Info
    Music Matters MMBLP-1557 2 LP Lee Morgan Vol. 3 Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84043 2 LP Horace Parlan Speakin' My Piece Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84074 2 LP Horace Parlan On The Spur Of The Moment Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84037 2 LP Horace Parlan Us Three Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84045 2 LP Freddie Redd Shades of Redd Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84023 2 LP Dizzy Reece Star Bright
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84184 2 LP Sam Rivers Fuchsia Swing Sang
    Music Matters
    MMBLP-1542 2 LP Sonny Rollins Vol. 1 Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84182 2 LP Wayne Shorter Juju Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1539 2 LP Horace Silver 6 Pieces Of Silver
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84185 2 LP Horace Silver Song For My Father
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84220 2 LP Horace Silver The Cape Verdean Blues Info
    Music Matters MMBST-1562 2 LP Horace Silver The Stylings Of Silver
    Music Matters
    MMBLP-1594 2 LP Louis Smith Smithville Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84096 2 LP Stanley Turrentine That's Where It's Art
    Music Matters
    MMBST-84070 2 LP Stanley Turrentine Up At "Minton's", Vol. 2 Info
    Music Matters MMBST-84221 2 LP Larry Young Unity

    This list has 77 titles That would be well over half of the series


    Clearly that is wrong. We have actual quotes from the guy who was involved in the mastering of well over half of the 45 rpm series. And for all we know there is no reason to think that the other titles were done any differently than the ones that Steve Hoffman was involved in. So are you really going to take the position that Steve comments on how he mastered these titles is in any way inaccurate? If so please offer a good reason.

    I think it is pretty insulting to our host to say that his comments on how he mastered these titles is purely conjecture. I see no reason to doubt his word on the subject of how he mastered these LPs. Unless you or someone else offers some pretty convincing information that contradicts Steve's comments on how he mastered these LPs I think the facts as I have stated them stand.
     
  14. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    But you are responding to it and all you have to offer at this point is a personal attack. Please offer some substance for a change

    What does that even mean not up to date? Are you suggesting that the 77 titles mastered by Steve Hoffman have since all been remastered without him? Clearly that is not the case. The facts on how those titles were mastered does not change with time. The facts on how those titles were mastered was true and continues to be true.

    That came from the link I provided. If you have any facts showing that Steve Hoffman did not master the titles on that very specific list please provide it. Here is the link again and I ask again is not accurate? If not please offer some support for that assertion.
    http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-musicmatters.html
     
  15. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    If anyone is doing Hoffman a disservice is you by dragging his name into a conversation you don't have all the facts. This last post by you finally proves you are way off base. If you think Hoffman was there for 77 titles because his name appears on the blue sticker on the shrink wrap then you might as well claim he was there for the entire series cuz his name is on all the stickers, except for the MM 33s. And if by any chance you believe either one of these scenarios, please, contact me, I've got a bridge in my city I'd be willing to sell you at a fair price.



    Hoffman and Music Matters parted ways in 2009. This is a known fact. As of 2009 Music Matters did not have 77 titles in release so how could Hoffman be a part of more than half of the series if he was not there past 2009?

    Fuzzy logic, Dude!


    How do I know Gray mastered these records differently after Steve Hoffman left? It's on the records themselves! Dig out the earliest Music Matters reissues and compare them to the latter ones and you'd hear the differences. Seriously!


    Here are some indications: the earlier MM 45s had a more darker sound whereas the latter ones were open and forward (more in your face) If you don't believe me go and compare Horace Parlan Us Three to Joe Henderson Mode For Joe.

    Even better you can go and listen to the AP Blue Note 45s that Steve Hoffman mastered, you can hear his mastering choices there as well on all 5o titles. Come to think of it sounds like you are conflating Hoffman's AP work with his Music Matters.


    Sounds like you are sucking up to Hoffman.

    Hoffman could not have done Dizzy Reece Star Bright cuz that was done in 2013 at Cohearent!

    Music Matters MMBST-84026 2 LP Donald Byrd Fuego
    Music Matters MMBST-1578 2 LP Lee Morgan The Cooker
    Music Matters MMBST-4212 2 LP Lee Morgan The Gigolo
    Music Matters MMBST-84096 2 LP Stanley Turrentine That's Where It's Art
    Music Matters MMBST-1560 2 LP Hank Mobley Hank

    These five titles directly above were never put out so how could Hoffman be part of something that never materialized.

    Your facts are not up to date. To say that Steve Hoffman was part of the mastering of more than half the MM 45 titles is an outright falsehood (Hoffman himself cannot make that claim). Until you admit that you are wholly wrong on that claim I don't see any point in this conversation. I'm done!!!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  16. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    Please don't misrepresent what I am saying. I clearly cited the source for the 77 titles. here it is again. http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-musicmatters.html
    I have now asked you three times to offer any evidence that this list is inaccurate. So for you have offered no evidence or documented support of any kind. Of course that "blue sticker on the shrink wrap" you are claiming to be inaccurate is put there by Music Matters. So you are now saying that Music Matters has been misrepresenting their own product. That is quite an assertion in and of itself which I think demands some pretty strong proof.



    If it is a known fact please offer some documented support that in fact Hoffman stopped working on these reissues at that time

    Please offer us some proof that Steve Hoffman did not master those 77 titles. So far all you have are unsupported assertions.

    No it's called documentation. There is no logic involved much less "fuzzy logic." You have been given it and so far all you have offered in response is unsupported assertions and assumptions. Please offer something of substance. If that list is inaccurate then please show us. http://www.stevehoffman.info/disc-musicmatters.html




    That is hardly any sort of proof of anything. that is just your biased anecdote. Each recording has it's own unique character. If this is what you are basing your assertion on then it is clear that you don't know that there have been any changes in how these LPs have been mastered since Steve Hoffman was involved. You also claim that "The facts will have to come from Rambach, Gray or Harley." Clearly you did not get any facts form them so you have nothing of substance to base your assertion upon. So you are now guilty of using a double standard of evidence based on your preconceptions of the truth.



    Repeating personal attacks does not make them a better argument. Again please bring some substance to the debate.


    Prove it. Offer some substantial verifiable evidence that Steve Hoffman did not master those 77 titles.

    We have two sources of documentation claiming that he mastered at least 77 of those Music Matters 45rpm LPs one of which comes directly from Music Matters. That is a fact. If you have better documentation or some other sort of evidence please present it. Name calling and hand waving doesn't cut it. If you want to make a convincing argument that the two sources, one of which is the actual representation from Music Matters about their own product is inaccurate you need to offer more than name calling and hand waving.
     
  17. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member


    If Hoffman mastered Star Bright he must have mastered Royal Flush both of them at Cohearent Audio in 2013? Looking at my titles all over again I count 33 titles that Hoffman was involved in with Music Masters.

    33 is a far cry from 77

    Again how can Hoffman Master these five unreleased titles:

    Music Matters MMBST-84026 2 LP Donald Byrd Fuego
    Music Matters MMBST-1578 2 LP Lee Morgan The Cooker
    Music Matters MMBST-4212 2 LP Lee Morgan The Gigolo
    Music Matters MMBST-84096 2 LP Stanley Turrentine That's Where It's Art
    Music Matters MMBST-1560 2 LP Hank Mobley Hank

    Clearly these five titles were never mastered or released so how can Hoffman be a part of that?
    Dude, please quit before you go off the ledge!
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  18. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    So you believe that everything that gets mastered also gets released?

    To quote you. "The facts will have to come from Rambach, Gray or Harley." get back to us when you have something from them or something that is actually verifiable
     
  19. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    By the way, there are 118 titles in the 45RPM series not 112. I know this because I own them.
     
  20. bilgewater

    bilgewater Forum Resident

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    Oh my. I'm forgetting what the initial issue was here.

    Is it the question of "flat transfer" and comparison with mastering choices of RVG, Hoffman/Gray, Gray? Why would "flat transfer" be more desirable anyway?

    I just want to hear what sounds best (yes, to my damaged imperfect ears on an imperfect system), and great masterings of studio recordings can sound way better than the live sound anyway. Yes it would've been great to sit in the studio while these tracks were being played, but that train has left the station.

    This is what's so great about the best-sounding classic jazz albums. Even if the performances are live (even first-takes), the mic-ing, recording, mastering, etc makes these moments live forever in an idealized manner. In particular we can hear the quieter instruments like the acoustic bass better when their freqs are boosted and we can hear more attack on the drums (wood, metal, timbre, rustle), which is one of the singular greatnesses of all the 1960s BN albums with world-historical drummers like Art Blakey and the young Tony Williams. And as a big jazz listener I don't know if I've ever heard a more in-your-face sound from Stanley Turrentine than on these MM records.

    I just wish Rudy had put two mikes deep into the piano and given it more isolation. So sad to hear muffled boxy sounds from the likes of Andrew Hill and Herbie Hancock and Cecil Taylor. But that was par for the course in the era. I'm not sure why, because there are better recorded piano sounds in jazz c 1961 (as on the Jimmy Giuffre with Paul Bley trio albums, recently remastered and rereleased on vinyl by ECM; their first-ever re-release of a non-ECM album.) Perhaps that's a tangent, though I suspect many of us are actually interested not only in the re-mastering of these pieces but the original mic-placement, isolation, mic-use and so forth. Interviews with RVG have been posted and discussed in prior threads.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
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  21. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    Can you tell us when Steve Hoffman Mastered Star Bright and Royal Flush at Cohearent Audio in 2013?

    While you are at it tell us why he mastered five titles that no one would release:

    Music Matters MMBST-84026 2 LP Donald Byrd Fuego
    Music Matters MMBST-1578 2 LP Lee Morgan The Cooker
    Music Matters MMBST-4212 2 LP Lee Morgan The Gigolo
    Music Matters MMBST-84096 2 LP Stanley Turrentine That's Where It's Art
    Music Matters MMBST-1560 2 LP Hank Mobley Hank
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  22. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    Dude Go to Music Matters Website and cout them yourself there are 112!

    What are the other 6 45 titles that MM forgot to put up on their site?
     
  23. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

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    The orange I had this morning must've been grown on a different planet. It's much sweeter than the apple I ate last night!
     
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  24. La Roca

    La Roca Well-Known Member

    If this so called flat xfer was worth the salt Wheeler would be able to name one ultra valuable record that's be done that way. Furthermore, it would have become the standard for mastering wouldn't it?
     
  25. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

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    No I can't. Can you tell us the date of the mastering and who was and was not there? If not then you have no substance behind this line of argument.

    I can not speak for Music Matters. As someone said "The facts will have to come from Rambach, Gray or Harley." The fact is that these titles were slated for release and the fact is the mastering is the first step in Music Matter's process of producing LPs. So it is hardly unreasonable much less impossible that when Music Matters decided to abandon the 45 rpm series and start the 33 rpm series that some titles may have been at various stages of production. That would likely mean already mastered.
     
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