Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

I didnt actually say my preference I was trying to summarize what I read here for the OP

I don't buy 45s so I can't compare. I do love my 33's for what it's worth.

 

You keep leaving out the occasionally poor experiences of customer service cited here. And that they promised to keep arbitrary price hikes. I know plenty of businesses that put out great product and have consistently great customer service. Just because you personally haven't experienced it doesn't mean that it never happens. And that they're a small business is irrelevant with regard to their business practice. And, by the way, I hope all businesses are a labor of love. That's how it should be.

But you can see what you want to see. Please don't belittle those who don't agree with you. We don't have axes to grind, we just calls 'em as we sees 'em.

 

For me the 45 rpms are a minor hassle but they sound noticeably more natural/pleasant, tonally, than the 33 1/3s - which probably doesn't have too much to do with the playback speed but more to do with mastering choices. Steve's involvement with the 45s shows (or, more accurately, sounds!). So I did the opposite of you - kept all my BN 45 rpm titles (AP and MM) and sold all my MM 33 1/3s (except the couple that weren't out on 45)...horses for courses, I suppose!

 

It does have quite a bit to do with the cutting speed, but there are, as you state, many factors.

 

Who have I belittled?

 

Like you, I've only been able to compare one pair of 33 vs. 45. It was Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, and in this case, the 45 was by Analogue Productions, though it was mastered by Gray and Hoffman, who also mastered most of the MM 45s. I strongly preferred the sound of the 45. The 33 had a brighter, more aggressive sound overall (with clearly more emphasis on upper mids), but the biggest difference was in the drums. On the 45, they were in their usual position in back of the stage, behind either the sax or trumpet (don't remember off the top of my head which was on the left with the drums). On the 33, they sounded like they were right in your face, almost in front of the lead instrument. While I'm no expert on these things, my strong hunch is that this was caused by a reduction in dynamic range. My ears can be pretty sensitive to listening fatigue, and I found the 33 a considerably more fatiguing listen than the 45.

That said, many listeners strongly preferred the sound of the 33--they thought the 45 sounded veiled or as if from a higher generation tape. However, it sounds like many people who have listened to both versions of several albums have reported similar findings to mine in terms of the 33s having a more aggressive, less dynamic approach, with drums in particular sounding more up front relative to the rest of the instruments than in the 45s.

I think which you ultimately prefer will depend on your system and listening preferences. If a more forward, aggressive sound--reportedly more similar to the original RVG masterings--is more appealing, you will likely prefer the 33s, and vice-versa.

[EDIT: I wrote this several hours ago, when no one else had yet responded to the question, but had to leave the computer before I could hit "send." Now that I have, I see that there have been some additional replies. I was in no way trying to take any sides with my post--just reporting my own findings].

 

"Kind of surprising not to see more extensive discussion of how the 45RPM titles compare with the 33RPM titles in cases where there is overlap."

Gotta dig deep in this thread, as soon as the topic crops up in this thread it gets spammed to change the direction of the conversation.

 

There has been discussion comparing the two formats.

I compared Larry Young's Unity. In my system, the overall sound signature is similar to what I find in the 45s vs. the 33s.

The 33, as NorthNY Mark wrote, is punchier and brighter. It also has less air and depth. The 45 sounds more relaxed and more like live to me. There is a bit of a tight quality to the 33s whereas the 45s have a better sense of ease and flow.

The sonic differences are relatively subtle, and the music and dynamic sound are far more the dominating factors.

 

I mentioned the "rewired" factor already.

But in the comparison I did a few posts back, I'm not really hearing anything of that kind being a benefit. I only am speaking to a single example, however. And I wouldn't want to assume all other cases would follow that path. It also may have nothing to do with the mastering system, but to me the 45 just sounded better.

 

This is exactly what I heard on Empyrean Isles. I feel what was most impacted were Freddie Hubbard's parts, which sound almost too "tight" and on the 33. A bit on the bright side in direct comparison to the 45.

I don't know whether this is about Kevin Gray's new system or EQ moves, but I assume more so the latter.

 

Too late to edit, but in my post above, of course I meant to refer to the drums as being on the right side, rather than the left! (Are there any RVG stereo recordings where he diverges from this pattern?)

 

The bass moved from the right channel to the center during the time Rudy was experimenting with positioning the stereo mix,
but the drums should normally be on the right. If you have the Blue Note Discography handy, you can reference the LP numbers for this timeline.
I have a list, just not handy.

How They Heard It – Blue Note Records and the Transition from Mono to Stereo

Stereo Positioning

If we listen carefully to the stereo releases of Blue Note albums recorded between May 1957 and May 1959, it’s possible to gain a sense of Rudy Van Gelder’s progress in developing and eventually settling on a particular stereo positioning scheme for the majority of his two-track recordings. There were only three positions for a musician and their instrument in a stereo mix at this time: hard left, dead center, or hard right (pan pots would not become a staple of mixing consoles until the seventies), and though his choices varied to a degree during this period, the majority of these recordings position horns left, piano center, and bass and drums right. (The center was empty on occasion, as it was with Blue Train, for example, with horns, reeds, and piano on the left and drums and bass on the right).

But then in January 1959, Van Gelder suddenly shifted the bass to the center of the stereo field, and over the next few months he would slowly but surely move the reeds to the right. What caused this sudden change of heart?

Luckily, the pieces of this puzzle fit together quite well. Having bass frequencies positioned hard left or right on a stereo record is known today to cause problems when mastering for vinyl. Van Gelder must have realized this after cutting his first stereo master lacquer disks in late 1958, which in turn would have spawned a period of increased experimentation lasting several months. Finally in May 1959, the engineer settled on a stereo positioning scheme for the typical jazz quintet: trumpets left, piano and bass center, and saxophone and drums right, and these choices would end up being Van Gelder’s unwavering preferences for the duration of the classic Blue Note era.

 

Have access now to the list i referred to so here are the album titles in the "experimental" spread timeline

Van Gelder started running simultaneous full and 2 track tapes,
with the hard stereo spread experimental positioning:
BLP 1562 Horace Silver The Stylings of Silver (5/8/57)
BLP 1563 Jimmy Smith Plays Pretty Just for You (5/8/57)
BLP 1564 Paul Chambers Paul Chambers Quintet (5/19/57)
BLP 1565 Clifford Jordan Cliff Jordan (6/2/57)
BLP 1566 Lou Donaldson Swing and Soul (6/9/57)
BLP 1567 Curtis Fuller The Opener (6/16/57)
BLP 1568 Hank Mobley Hank Mobley (6/23/57)
BLP 1569 Paul Chambers Bass on Top (7/14/57)
BLP 1570 Sonny Clark Dial "S" for Sonny (7/21/57)
BLP 1571 Bud Powell Bud! The Amazing Bud Powell (Vol. 3) (8/3/57)
BLP 1572 Curtis Fuller Bone & Bari (8/4/57)
BLP 1573 John Jenkins John Jenkins with Kenny Burrell (8/11/57)
BLP 1574 Hank Mobley Peckin' Time (2/9/58)
BLP 1575 Lee Morgan City Lights (8/25/57)
BLP 1576 Sonny Clark Sonny's Crib (9/1/57)
BLP 1577 John Coltrane Blue Train (9/15/57)
BLP 1578 Lee Morgan The Cooker (9/29/57)
BLP 1579 Sonny Clark Sonny Clark Trio (9/13/57)
BLP 1580 Johnny Griffin The Congregation (10/23/57)
BLP 1581 Sonny Rollins A Night at the Village Vanguard (11/3/57)
BLP 1582 Clifford Jordan Cliff Craft (11/10/57)
BLP 1583 Curtis Fuller Curtis Fuller Volume 3 (12/1/57)
BLP 1584 Louis Smith Here Comes Louis Smith (2/4/58)
BLP 1585 Jimmy Smith Groovin' at Small's Paradise, Volume 1 (11/15/57)
BLP 1586 Jimmy Smith Groovin' at Small's Paradise, Volume 2 (11/15/57)
BLP 1587 Bennie Green Back on the Scene (3/23/58)
BLP 1588 Sonny Clark Cool Struttin' (1/5/58)
BLP 1589 Horace Silver Further Explorations (1/13/58)
BLP 1590 Lee Morgan Candy (11/18/57, 2/2/58)
BLP 1591 Lou Donaldson Lou Takes Off (12/15/57)
BLP 1592 Sonny Clark Sonny Clark - [unissued] (12/8/57)
BLP 1593 Lou Donaldson Blues Walk (7/28/58)
BLP 1594 Louis Smith Smithville (3/30/58)
BLP 1595 Cannonball Adderley Somethin' Else (3/9/58)
BLP 1596 Kenny Burrell Blue Lights Volume 1 (5/14/58)
BLP 1597 Kenny Burrell Blue Lights Volume 2 (5/14/58)
BLP 1598 Bud Powell Time Waits: The Amazing Bud Powell (Vol. 4) (5/25/58)
BLP 1599 Bennie Green Soul Stirrin' (4/28/58)
BLP 1600 The Three Sounds Introducing The Three Sounds
BST 8 4001 Sonny Rollins Newk's Time (9/22/57)
BST 8 4002 Jimmy Smith House Party (8/25/57, 2/25/57)
BST 8 4003 Art Blakey/Jazz Messengers Moanin' (10/30/58) (last album recorded in mono, now new 2 track 50/50 system)
BST 8 4004 Art Blakey Holiday for Skins, Volume 1 (11/9/58)
BST 8 4005 Art Blakey Holiday for Skins, Volume 2 (11/9/58)
BST 8 4006 Dizzy Reece Blues in Trinity (8/24/58)
BST 8 4007 Donald Byrd Off to the Races (12/21/58)
BST 8 4008 Horace Silver Quintet Finger Poppin' (2/1/59)
BST 8 4009 Bud Powell The Scene Changes: The Amazing Bud Powell (Vol. 5) (12/29/58)
BST 8 4010 Bennie Green Walkin' & Talkin' (1/25/59)
BST 8 4011 Jimmy Smith The Sermon! (8/25/57, 2/25/58)
BST 8 4012 Lou Donaldson Lou Donaldson with The Three Sounds - LD + 3 (2/18/59)
BST 8 4013 Jackie McLean New Soil (5/2/59) -revised stereo positioning??
BST 8 4014 The Three Sounds Bottoms Up! (2/11/59)
BST 8 4015 Art Blakey At the Jazz Corner of the World Vol. 1 (4/15/59)
BST 8 4016 Art Blakey At the Jazz Corner of the World Vol. 2 (4/15/59)

Revised Stereo spread mix - with piano and bass in the center - recorded at Englewood Cliffs from July 1959
BST 8 4017 Horace Silver Blowin' the Blues Away (8/29/59, 8/30/59, 9/13/59)
BST 8 4018 Walter Davis Jr. Davis Cup (8/2/59)
BST 8 4019 Donald Byrd Byrd in Hand (5/31/59)
BST 8 4020 The Three Sounds Good Deal (5/20/59)
BST 8 4021 Kenny Burrell/Art Blakey On View at the Five Spot Cafe (8/25/59)
BST 8 4022 Duke Pearson Profile (10/25/59)
continues in stereo... recorded at Englewood Cliffs.

 

I mentioned a few pages back about my new found affection for the Kenny Dorham 'Round About Midnight at the Cafe Bohemia' album. On the AllMusic review, the reviewer writes: "This music is designed for relaxing and grooving out. It will greatly assist anyone who is traveling by night or trying to make it through to the end of another day". I believe that is the case with the three albums highlighted above. Perfect for listening late at night, be it in a dark room or traveling by night. Slow, bluesy and sensual is the best way I can describe it. This is currently the type of Jazz that I'm gravitating towards.

My question as a somewhat novice still discovering these albums.....are there any other Blue Notes that fit the 'late night' vibe, and are similar to 'Blue Hour', 'Midnight Blue', 'Blue & Sentimental', and 'Round About Midnight'?

 

Grant Green's Idle Moments.

 

Yup! Idle Moments definitely fits the bill (I should have mentioned it). I have that one and 'Matador' by Grant Green. The Idle Moments title track and the cover of My Favorite Things are my favorites.

 

Thanks! I also found JR Monterose, I'll post an updated list, and update discogs, as well.

 

Late night vibe?

Wayne Shorter

• Night Dreamer
• Speak No Evil
• Adam's Apple

Grant Green

• Street of Dreams (Lazy Afternoon is the bomb track for a late vibe)

 

@jdlaw that previous post was meant in reply to your inquiry about late night vibes.

 

Thank you for the recommendations!

I have 'Speak No Evil' on CD, but haven't heard the other 3 you mentioned. I'll sample them on YouTube when I get a chance, especially that Grant Green album.

 

Great late night vibe: Ike Quebec, Soul Samba.

 

Newly updated! There are 24 MM releases in glorious mono, all in 45rpm format, with Blue Train, Hank Mobley, and Magnificent Thad available in both formats.

Any favorites on this list?

Clifford Brown - Memorial Album ‎
Curtis Fuller - The Opener ‎
Gil Melle - Patterns In Jazz ‎
Hank Mobley - Quintet ‎
Hank Mobley - Hank Mobley
Hank Mobley Quartet - Hank Mobley Quartet ‎
Horace Silver And The Jazz Messengers - Horace Silver And The Jazz Messengers
John Coltrane - Blue Train
John Jenkins / Kenny Burrell - John Jenkins
Johnny Griffin - Johnny Griffin, Vol. 2 ‎
JR Monterose - J.R. Monterose ‎
Kenny Dorham - 'Round About Midnight At The Cafe Bohemia ‎
Kenny Dorham - Afro-Cuban‎
Lee Morgan - Indeed ‎
Lee Morgan - Volume 3 ‎
Louis Smith - Smithville ‎
Paul Chambers Quintet - Paul Chambers Quintet ‎
Sonny Clark - Dial "S" For Sonny ‎
Sonny Rollins - Sonny Rollins Volume One ‎
Thad Jones - The Magnificent Thad Jones
The Horace Silver Quintet - 6 Pieces Of Silver ‎
The Horace Silver Quintet - The Stylings Of Silver ‎
The Jazz Messengers - At The Cafe Bohemia Volume 1 ‎
The Jazz Messengers - At The Cafe Bohemia Volume 2 ‎

 

Just FYI, Blue Train is not available in mono in both formats, and Music Matters only released it on 33. Analogue Productions released it on 45 in stereo.

 

Our host made a comment on this subject in post 8187 in this thread:

Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

 

Been a while since I've posted here, was fairly out-of-commission the last 8-9 months planning my wedding and honeymoon. But now that that's all over with, I think it's time I spring for a few more MMs....

Anyway, I was relistening to Grant Green's Solid yesterday--oh man does that record smoke! At times, I almost forgot that it was a Grant Green record though because Joe Henderson steals the show so many times. Sadly this is one of those records that's been price-jacked on the MM site. Does anyone have any leads on a reasonably priced copy? Also looking for Hank Mobley's Workout, ideally in 33 format.