Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    I did not subscribe to the MM 45 RPM series. Instead, I was lucky to purchase about 35 of them from a used record store two years ago. Also, I picked up a few on eBay when the price was right. Since I developed a list where I force ranked the outstanding titles. Every other month, I send the list to MM and ask them to suggest ones on the list that are in danger of being sold out. I have 22 to go to complete the set, which I plan to do, as long as the lp are available.

    Last year I signed up for the 33 RPM series, love each and everyone, even the duplicates. Like many folks, I find the 33 RPM version to be more convenient. But all that MM puts out has great sound.

    Whether or not MM uses the 33 to subsidize the 45, I have no idea. But the lower price point for the 33 will attract a new set of clients. The format will attract a new set of clients. MM has editions now of what 7,500 instead of 2,500. So the economics definitely favor the new 'standard' format.

    Personally, I think that is most of it. Convenience and price for customers with a high quality product, and for MM cash flow to survive and to continue to do this.
     
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  2. Nelson

    Nelson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arkansas
    I was hoping to pre-order Out to Lunch and Maiden but MM's site doesn't seem to offer that as an option even though both are coming next month. Maybe they will offer this option later, hopefully by the end of December.
     
  3. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, Mass.
    Man, how often to we have to repeat this to you? Kevin replaced one of his cables!
     
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  4. RelayerNJ

    RelayerNJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Whippany, NJ
    Again, it's the RVG piano. Never was recorded well.
     
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  5. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, Mass.
    Both of these assertions are nonsensical, particularly in the case of Blue Note. But that's an audiophile for you.
     
  6. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    I would buy a Herbie Nichols MM Blue Note reissue in a heartbeat.
     
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  7. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    I don't like it either. Wish more variety was reissued from the BN back catalog. Otherwise, if I have misunderstood, I don't know what your point is. I see labels, whether the primary (BN in this case), or its licensees releasing similar or the same titles over and over again, every few years a new remaster in a slightly different format. MM and AP have broken from that trend to a minor degree, but even they have released bread and butter 'money' titles.

    I don't know why, save that these primary titles are the ones that critics give 4 to 5 stars to, everyone wants or needs to complete their punchlist, and labels use to mine money from the consuming public. If you don't agree that this behavior is occurring, wonderful for you.

    Not sure I get the last part about audiophiles. I think it is a pejorative inference or perhaps a clever way to demean.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2014
  8. Solaris

    Solaris a bullet in flight

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    I'm really happy with the 45s I bought, and have been tempted to get Point of Departure and Speak No Evil, but since they're coming out on 33 1/3, I'm just going to wait. I continue to be grateful that I picked up the 45 of Out To Lunch, however. It opened that record up for me and made me a fan after years of being indifferent.

    I've never heard Matador, however, and am very curious.
     
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  9. antielectrons

    antielectrons Well-Known Member

    Location:
    UK
    You will be able to buy them after they are released. Only subscribers get to pre-order.
     
  10. Six String

    Six String Senior Member

    That is always a possibility in these precarious economic times. I would rather they double dip if it allows them to stay in business. I don't want them to fail. They are doing good work. All this second guessing is exactly that. If you aren't in the inner circle of that company you don't know squat about their situation and why they have made their decisions.
    They have been very transparent to their customers and responsive to needs so they have a long way to go before I start complaining about Music Matters.
     
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  11. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, Mass.
    Your explanation for repetitive reissues is, the titles "are the ones that critics give 4 to 5 stars to", or, as you put it elsewhere, they're the "creme de la creme" of the Blue Note catalog.

    Steve Hoffman addressed this very question not so long ago in this thread, and his explanation differs from yours: It's "[p]robably because they [i.e., MM] already have the license for POINT OF DEPARTURE & a zillion other already issued titles and can issue them over again in any speed they want, even 78 RPM without having to relicense..."

    You passively conclude that whatever the reissue boutiques put out there over and over again, must be a masterpiece. It's as if you're taking a drive around town, see all the McDonalds and Burger Kings, and conclude: A burger and fries must be the best food out there-- why else are there so many fast food joints?

    Yours is an audiophile mentality, not one informed by familiarity with the music. It's actually harmful to your enjoyment of it-- because if you think that a Three Sounds title or a Turrentine title (his best work is on CTI, anyway) or a Parlan title (I'd rather have his duets with Shepp) tower above the rest of the BN catalog or the jazz of that era, you're grievously mistaken. I'm not knocking the titles in question. But to call them the "creme de la creme" because they get reissued is laughable. There are dozens of BN masterpieces that will never see the light of day on MM and never even get referenced on threads like this.

    But hey, Kevin's got new cables or something and the pricey vinyl sound great on your system, so they must be the equivalent of the Brandenburg Concertos. Whatever floats your boat.
     
  12. dminches

    dminches Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    I own over half of the 45s and and several 33 1/3s but I'd rather listen to something I have never heard before than potentially improve the quality of something I already own a smidgen. And this is coming from someone who periodically gets stuck listening to his equipment and not the music.
     
  13. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    Oh, well in that case I need to get busy dumping all my MM 45s. They must be crap now and unlistenable. And surely, I will need to upgrade all the cables in my playback system to take proper advantage of that, right?
     
    SteelyTom likes this.
  14. whaiyun

    whaiyun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Windsor/Detroit
    I just prefer not to flip over the record all the time. And the cheaper price.
     
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  15. george2210

    george2210 Forum Resident

    You can dump them in my direction, hope it works it's across the atlantic.
     
  16. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    Sorry, the 33s are out. The 45s are rendered obsolete. They won't work on either side of the Atlantic now.
     
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  17. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Wait, didn't the folks who bought the 45s realize that 40 minutes of music was being divided up among 4 sides? That's like buying a screwdriver (the tool, not the drink) and posting, "I didn't realize I'd have to turn it and my wrist along with it."
     
  18. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    We all like Music Matters. We all like Blue Note. Could we please discuss these reissues with a little more collegiality?

    Those who are upset about the new title selection are right. Those who are not upset are right, too. Buy them or don't, there is no wrong answer. Let's move forward without the sharp words, gents.
     
  19. antielectrons

    antielectrons Well-Known Member

    Location:
    UK
    Exactly, everyone is right. There are no wrong choices here.
     
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  20. TimArruda

    TimArruda Well-Known Member

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    I know you're not knocking the titles in question, but I couldn't disagree with you more. I can't stand the CTI sound (smooth jazz, here we come), and much prefer Stanley Turrentine on Blue Note. I love his earlier work. I'm not much of a fan of the Three Sounds, but I also love Horace Parlan's titles on Blue Note. To me, it's totally irrelevant where anyone else places those titles in the larger jazz canon, whether they be jazz critics, reissue labels or my friends here on the Hoffman Forums. They are what *I* like. I know a lot of folks really appreciate the titles that are farther out there and take more risks (avant-garde, free jazz, whatever sub genres fall there), but for the most part it just doesn't resonate with me. Some of it just plain turns me off. Joaquin des Prez has been working with me trying to broaden my jazz horizons (thanks Dean!), and to some extent is has worked, but in the mean time I'll just keep buying and listening to what I like. I'm hoping that Music Matters goes deeper into the Blue Note catalog as time goes on, and in the mean time I can keep searching out King Records releases from Japan for Blue Note titles. I have Horace Parlan's Up and Down on King and it sounds great. OJC released some great stuff as well, it's impressive to me how wide a swath they cut, with a lot of music that I don't believe (I certainly could be wrong) is well known. I love Steeplechase, but haven't listened to Parlan's releases with Archie Shepp up to now.

     
  21. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    You're right, too.

    Kum-ba-ya, ma lord, kum-ba-yah....... :hugs:

    Seriously, I'm gonna admit that I'm right, too, in that I am only familiar with a small handful of the "classics".

    I own:

    1) A few Horace Silver (turned onto him by Steely Dan), including one very early pressing.
    2) An early pressing of the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis collaboration, Consummation
    3) The Capitol Connoisseur pressing pressing of Maiden Voyage as well
    4) A '70s pressing of Speak No Evil
    5) A '70s pressing of Blue Train along with the MM 33
    6) A '70s pressing of Empyrean Isles (though I haven't listened to that copy yet)
    7) The MM pressing of "Midnight Blue"
    8) Art Blakey/Jazz Messengers AP 45 of Moanin'.
    9) The Capitol Connoisseur pressing of Lee Morgan's Sidewinder.

    I know I'll be picking up the MM 33 of Larry Young's Unity when it comes out.

    There ARE those out there who have to come to jazz later in the game. It's fun to come across an early pressing in great condition at a yard sale or Goodwill. It's also great to be introduced to the albums on decent later pressings. But what keeps those of us who appreciate how much more visceral and interesting a great mastering and pressing can make in the appreciation of the music are a bit put off by $50 per album prices. Sure, they can go up in value, but those of us with fewer resources to outlay in the first place (otherwise I'd just be a venture capitalist or live off of my interest accrued from businesses based in a cubby hole PO box in the Cayman Islands), the $35/album is a more enticing figure given the quality.

    I'm right, right?
     
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  22. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    OK. Agreed. If people stop making ridiculous claims that I'll "be missing out" if I don't buy the new 33s that duplicate my older 45s.
     
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  23. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Put it this way. If there are those who have compared the two and have discovered the new 33 really trounces the 45, it's okay to say so. That person is saying it that way partly out of their great enthusiasm for the music, and if the new one hits him or or significantly more viscerally than the 45, it's understandable the enthusiasm and wanting to share that discovery with others.

    On the other hand, in another thread, someone who has both the AP 45 of Vince Guaraldi's "A Charlie Brown Christmas" and the new Kevin Gray mastered 33 (and has an original, to boot) posted that he was surprised that the older 45 bettered the new 33, in spite of the upgraded mastering chain. He is someone who has been favoring the 33 Blue Notes over the 45s.

    Again, the "you'll be missing out" should probably be taken as a great enthusiasm for a significant jump in the enjoyment of the music. I know that when I went from a '70s reissue of the Charlie Brown LP as well as a Starbucks CD to the AP 45, I almost fell over in my chair. I was not prepared for how amazing that 45 was and how much more impact there was compared to the very well recorded LP as well as the CD I have. Is there that much of an improvement to the 33s compared to the 45s? Perhaps on an individual basis, there might be one that is a whole other league. If that were to be the case, I might say "You'll be missing out" to impress the point.

    Many, though, are jaded to read how phenomenal this or that pressing is, only, after paying top dollar and playing it, to be disappointed in its many flaws. One example coming to mind is the Dusty In Memphis AP 45. I have a 2nd pressing (an orange/green 1841 Broadway) and I'll take it over the 45, neither being an audiophile's dream (a music lover's one, though).
     
  24. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez I have spoken!

    Location:
    U.S.
    Sorry, but I think it's just audiophile enthusiasm, and has less to do with the love of music for its own sake. We're not talking about replacing old 70s/80s reissues of earlier music that were hastily and poorly done. We are talking about recent high-end, expensive reissues that were extremely well done, and are now being redone again. I replace my crappy old reissues of records I like with good quality "audiophile" ones when they come out. I have been doing that lately with my Miles and Monk collections (from Mofi, ORG, Speakers Corner, Impex, etc).

    I just don't care that the MM 33s are better than the MM/AP 45s. Telling me I will "miss out" if I don't upgrade one audiophile pressing to the next latest and greatest is just plain old B.S. audiophile-speak. I care to spend my money on music I don't have in my collection. I do not want to throw more money at replacing perfectly good [to me] audiophile reissues with newer audiophile reissues. My wish list for other reissues, jazz and classical, is way too large for me to be spending $500 over the next year on stuff I already have and enjoy.

    FWIW: I will buy the 33s of Eric Dolphy and the two Hancocks only because they are favorites and get a lot of play. Then I have backup copies, but then I'm done. I will buy titles from the new MM reissues I don't have (six titles among those announced) and will stop buying the duplicates. I don't care how much better they are.

    Try and get beyond it. I am not "missing out" an anything that is worth taking me away from buying other titles I have yet to add to my collection.
     
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  25. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, Mass.
    There's out-of-pocket cost, and then there's opportunity cost. If you've "come to jazz later in the game", the price of chasing de luxe, mini-refinements of Rudy Van Gelder's mediocre piano tonality is high indeed.

    Time is short and the jazz terrain is vast. Hell, the Blue Note terrain alone is vaster than you'd ever think in reading a thread like this.
     

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