My New Tube Integrated- Way Under the Radar (Raven Audio Nighthawk) *

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Dec 13, 2015.

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  1. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident

    Yeah, wish I had the Winged C but Dave's stash dried up awhile ago and well before I received my amp. I have the Svetlana brand 6L6GC just not the Winged C which now fetches around $300-$400 for a quad.
     
  2. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    interesting, i thought raven had plenty of them in inventory. you should contact dave and maybe he can recommend alternatives.
     
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  3. dadonred

    dadonred Life’s done you wrong so I wrote you all this song

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    FYI, if you go with the CM, later switch speakers and need to change the factory setting, based on this review article in Absolute Sound (not sure if it's still the case):

    Regarding the latter, though I well realize that adding a third post for a 4-ohm load would add a bit to the unit’s cost, be prepared—should your speakers be rated at that load, as are my Magnepan 1.7s—to roll up your sleeves for a bit of minor mechanical work. For most us, even those who may not rank among the mechanically inclined, removing the amplifier’s outer case and loosening a nut in order to switch out a few wires is no big deal. But here I must criticize the owner’s manual, which calls for the use of a 5/16” open-ended wrench for the job (adjustable “crescent” wrenches are too thick for the operation). Not having one in my kit, I drove to the local hardware store (thankfully only a few miles away) to purchase one. Arriving home, guess what? It didn’t fit the nut. Adjusting my crescent wrench as best I could in an attempt to “gauge” the proper size, I returned to the hardware store. Aha, 7/16 should do the trick. Wrong again. Doing my best to keep cool I returned a third time, and, taking no chances, purchased both 3/8 and 12mm, wrenches, which seemed to exhaust my options in the general size range. The 12mm model did the trick. Although I’d wasted a solid hour, felt my blood pressure rise, and spent more money than I should have, I am at least consoled by the newly increased flexibility of my toolkit.
     
  4. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    _____________________________________

    So sorry for seeing this and chiming in so late.

    The SUB OUT is indeed a full-range preamplifier output. In the old days manufacturer's would have it labeled "Tape Out" but of course these days SUB OUT is a more apt description for a preamp output, no matter what it is chosen to be used for. But you must take care here....

    We thought that having a preamplifier output would be a very convenient situation for our customers to utilize as they wish. It makes a decent subwoofer output that works with the volume of the amplifier. You must use a really powerful subwoofer to have it work properly though. You can fine adjust the volume to match your listening environment and have full range sound now even if your speakers drop off at... say 45-60Hz or whatever.... just adjust your subwoofer crossover accordingly.

    But you must realize that - it is there as an "ADDITION" to the amplifier, not really as an alternative choice. It was a difficult choice for us to offer, because it opens our products up to potential sonic detriment.

    Even though it is "after the volume" you cannot really expect to be able to use it as a source for other systems unless you remember that it is designed to use:
    only in ADDITION to the speakers in your system. This doesn't mean that you cannot use it however you may wish, just always know that you must be careful and adhere to some rules. Your warranty will not cover damage resulting from experimentation outside of the design parameters within its recommended use.

    In other words, and this is incredibly important~!!!!
    You cannot simply remove the speakers from your Avian Series integrated amplifier and use this as a preamp or head amp - unless you use a decent quality, specially designed pair of decent 8 ohm resistors installed in place of your speakers. Your power amplifier section must always have a load installed while it is turned on. Adhere to these simple electronic rules and you should be just fine. But....

    If you choose to do this, only then can you use your "Hawk" as a preamplifier, and maybe if you are especially crafty or have a source to find an adapter that channels your outputs into a box outfitted with headphone outputs, maybe you could use it as a head amp too. It just isn't designed for that purpose. You will still have to have a load on the speaker output terminals if you want to experiment. And if the amplifier fails you will be liable for those repairs. Just always keep in mind that you could burn up your transformer(s) - which can lead to a rather large repair bill. So go carefully into the night!

    And yeah, we have discussed making a kit for this purpose. It's just human nature, and we have to fight our normal responses from time to time. The truth is, this is kind of the opposite approach to our vision for the brand.
    And this is always where things could actually start to get complicated, should we ever decide to go down the dark path so to speak....

    Having a headphone output circuitry built into our amplifiers is a very easy task of course. It wouldn't add that much to the cost of the product... but for every action there is going to be a detrimental reaction in the final sound of the product.... you see where I am going?

    Adding anything to these simple clean audiophile style circuits will ALWAYS have a detrimental effect to the final sound purity of each product.

    No matter how tempting it is to start down the dark pathway to convenience, offering attributes like "built-in phono stage, headphone output, tube monitoring LED's, VU and bias meters, then we could easily go further like many others.... bluetooth, cell phone sockets, chargers, LED glowing this and that.... one-box cutting edge conveniences!
    Being the "SUV Mini-Crossover hatchback" of Audio.... that's just not Raven Audio.

    We have chosen instead to maintain our purist approach throughout our Avian Series product line. When you choose this brand, you will be choosing something (please forgive me, but it's kind of true) that is akin to a fine British sports car. You can feel each deviation in the road.... you can almost become emotionally connected to the asphalt..... that is not unlike what we do actually!


    All of the Avian Series products are immediately capable of eliciting an exciting very basic raw emotional connection to the music - and if you pay attention you will start to notice it in a different way, right away.

    Once you hear a Raven Audio product you will actually notice that your heart and soul will actually respond to a really great musical performance in a much more visceral way than most other decent quality yet possibly more generic level product lines. If the musical performance is excellent, you will notice that immediately! You may not even be in the room... but it will be able to turn your head in mid sentence... you will be drawn to it, and you may find that it will attract your attention from somewhere else. You may start to notice it from down the hall, or another room. I know it sounds cliche' but people do get that.


    So imagine how good it is if you are sitting right in the room with this product. Our customer's get it. They know why they are buying Raven Audio.

    It's not that we are offering any sort of brand new cutting edge Voodoo magic or anything designed in Area 51... its only about hard choices, and our completely purist approach to the product itself.

    Keeping all of these products very simple, clean, where each component that is used within the circuit is carefully chosen for its sonic cleanliness and its ability to completely get out of the way and not flavor the final sound. THAT is and always has been our ONLY goal.

    If in the end you decide that you may want a slightly different sound, maybe more bass, more high end, more "air around the individual musicians" whatever - simply choose a different tube pair somewhere within the preamp or power amp. You will be able to eventually achieve what you are looking for.

    It's going to be about the system the amplifier is placed within in the end. Its about the "symbiosis" so to speak. Different rooms, speakers, cables, all will have a small (or even huge) effect on the final sound. At least when you decide to purchase a tube amp you are not left without choices from then on, like you absolutely are with digital or solid state. This is precisely where tube amps are so darn much fun~!!! Its the huge advantage we have over every other audio product!

    Now you have invested thousands on your new audio system, and your system is finally sounding just heavenly.... after a few months if you ever think.... man, if I just had a tiny bit more midrange things would be sooooo perfect..... Time to think about buying a different amplifier???? NO! Guess what! You can just call Brent Jessie, Kevin Deal, or any one of dozens of tube experts, and ask.... what tube would give me a tiny bit more midrange presence.... or more warmth in the bass region... etc.

    In the end if you chose to purchase a really fine tube amplifier, just know that the possibilities will always remain just about endless for you. Thank Goodness you chose to own a really great tube amplifer!

    Now your music can take flight on the wings or Raven Audio...

    Uh oh..... so sorry, got carried away..... :whistle::shrug::blah:

    Dave Thomson
    Raven Audio

     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
  5. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas

    Alas, we are out of the beloved Winged =C= power tubes. But there are many other fine alternatives out there now. We are working with a new tube that offers some exciting possibilities. I will elaborate on this as soon as we have some more evaluation time. At this point all I can say is, it is extremely promising.

    For now in the 6L6 lineup the Mullard is still a great choice, the Svetlana are still great sounding too - even though they have proven a bit troublesome lately. I even am starting to like the latest Tung Sol offerings.

    But in the end... with them all being made in Russia... I would be lying if I didn't at least say at this point, I am a little bit nervous as to our current situation. Hopefully none of the current world political movements will effect our trade situation with the Ruskies. Imagine if we lose our link to some of those great potato squeezins~! Oh... and those little glass amplifiers too...

    I sure wish someone here would start making tubes again..... dammit! After all, we did invent this stuff~!!!!~
     
  6. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident

    Oh, please do elaborate when you can Dave! Are these able to be used in the Avian series? :idea: Very interesting indeed....
     
  7. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Wow! Read my lips- no tubes for you!
     
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  8. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    Okay, but usually I want to give these new tubes more "failure watch" time... but they are by far pretty darn incredible. I will easily state that these are the best 6L6 substitute so far. I tried the rather expensive 6L6G's last time and after about three weeks, one morning I turned one of the tester units on and boom~!!! One failed. Not going to recommend those... unfortunately. And I had been hearing about them being prone to failure. That one sounded great too. Too many potato squeezins in the Ruskie lab I suspect.... :cheers::faint::buttkick:
    Don't laugh, I heard several times that this also may be true! Haven't been there myself yet though....

    Anyway, this new tube (not really new, the 7581 has been around for decades, but was underbiased at the 6L6GC setting, especially in our amps...) But the new version, the 7581A is different. It is a 6L6GC substitute, specially designed that way. It seems to be quite a bit punchier and ballsier than anything else out there.... and I do have to admit... I LOVE IT!

    Just beware, and watch very closely after first turn-on of the day... and immediately turn the unit off if one goes south. Hopefully you will not have to ship the amp back to me afterward. It is rare when it damages the amp. Usually only the tube goes... find another quad and your back in business... but then again...

    This relatively new (2015) tube is probably going to be our new OEM tube. I would be lying if I said I wasn't extremely excited about the possibility of this happening now. This is just a true super power tube in our amps. I just wanted to do more thorough listening tests before I said anything... but so far so good.

    I am working with the Osprey now. Seems to be about the same result in that amp too, though I am hearing something at loud volume levels that I am still a little unsure of... only occasionally, and only on harder rock like Porcupine Tree, Slipknot, Downfall Rising, etc. something around the vocals... can't quite put my finger on it. But it may be these speakers too...

    So I am still listening and in the final stretch of making the decision.:sweating::help:
     
  9. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident

    Wow, that's great Dave! Glad to hear you are having some earlier success with these tubes. Very exciting.
     
  10. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    I have just about decided to send an email to New Sensor and order some more quads. I am officially excited now. I just swapped the Osprey from the GR Research LS9's over to the Legacy Calibre pair I have in the shop and I don't hear what I was hearing before. I am moving to the Focus SE's next... then to a pair of B&W's I am borrowing. I think I need to hear these on some Tekton speakers before I will make the full decision about these though.

    Does anyone out there have Tekton speakers in their home? They are super sensitive and I need to make sure we aren't opening up a can of worms with this new powerful headroom I am getting from these 7581A tubes.... Eric promised me a pair....... what, about a decade ago it seems!!! I know he's busy but Dammmmmm n. I really need a pair for this...
     
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  11. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident

    If you need a test on the KEF LS50's, I'm your man! :winkgrin:
     
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  12. EricMack

    EricMack Forum Resident

    Location:
    ohio
    Dave, perhaps a pair of Zu's would work if sourcing Tektons proves difficult....
     
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  13. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    Okay Everyone, Joe found a quad of 7581A's cheaper than my pricing (darn it!) I am going to have to speak with Meg about this! :cussing::shrug::rant:

    It looks like he's buying a large lot at a time... so it makes sense. I will probably be able to offer them for a decent price too eventually.

    We might just ship the new Nighthawk MK2.1, Blackhawk LE MK2 and Osprey MK2 with 7581's now if things go well. The new MK designations are only due to them being manufactured in the new shop... the amplifiers themselves should remain the same. Field and shop testing should start fairly soon now~! But we are getting into show mode for AXPONA 2017 with Legacy Audio so that will all have to wait for a couple of weeks while I am out on the road. The shop engineering team will still be working while we are out tho...
     
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  14. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    Welcome aboard Eric~! Well, you may be the first... but I would feel better about it if I could ship you something tried and true with hundreds of successful hours behind it. Sorry about my apprehensiveness! The Zu's are what... 97db? Maybe... let me think about it. Wish I had a pair of those...
     
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  15. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    The LS50's are a safe bet I suspect. But please let me know.
     
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  16. Joe Spivey

    Joe Spivey Forum Resident

    Quad ordered! Heading out on vacation with the wife and kiddos shortly. I'll experiment with these hopefully upon my return. :pineapple:

    I'll keep ya posted.
     
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  17. Just received my nighthawk, setting up once I get some hi efficency speakers. I do have some older infinity reference 1.5 monitors 4 ohm 88 dB sensitivity they dip down to 2 ohm I read. My question is would you open them up to see if the cross over is good or hook them up and see if they work, I don't want to hurt my new but used amp. Second question is with driver tubes the night hawk mk2 has a quad of matched tubes, if one blows do you need 4 new matched tubes, or do you need one that tests out equal to the other three? Then without a tube tester , how to know, do matched quad print the tested values on the boxs? So you can order a equal .
     
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  18. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    Hello John, do you have any other amplifier in house that you can hook them up to first?
     
  19. Yes a SS pioneer elite 7.1 home theater amp
     
  20. HI dave , I called you about getting a refurbished NH mk2 2 weeks ago. The nighthawk that was for sale on audiogon from Alabama was bought by a guy in Ohio then put it right up for sale. I suspect he took out the 6l6gc wing's and shipped with Tung Sol 6l6gc's . The add from Alabama said it came with both sets of quads. I am happy I have my Nighthawk mk2, can you address my question on quad matching above. Ty, Fitz
     
  21. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    I would probably, one at a time, check out those speakers by hooking them up to a channel of that amp. It is much less likely to damage the little solid state or digital amp, though in truth, you probably will not encounter a problem unless it is a direct short. You could simply test them out with an ohm meter too. Do you have anything else? Even a 9v battery will tell you if they are working or shorted directly I suppose... do you have a multimeter with a resistance (ohm) setting?
     
  22. Yes I do have a multi meter
     
  23. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    The power tubes must be matched closely or it can create a hum. You can easily grab a quad from Ebay or one of the substitutes available. I always get matched quads directly from New Sensor, but you can purchase them on Ebay from wpc1896 for a LOT cheaper than just about anywhere else. He has sold over 11,000 tubes and has a 100% rating! So he is a good seller and has great buying power, therefore can offer great deals.

    Matching a single tube into an existing quad requires a high powered tester, like an Amplitrex which costs around $2K+ The tube matching attachment is even more.

    Though you can try to purchase a replacement tube for a single bad one out of a quad, the chance that you will get a perfectly matched one is pretty low unless you send your remaining three into someone that sells tubes professionally. Only then would you expect to receive a properly matched quad in return. Every older tester is slightly different. The old testers are not going to give you this kind of ability like the newer ones can. SO it is always best to just either purchase a new quad, or find someone that can take your three tubes and match them.

    You can always call me John. I am glad you got your amp.

    If you are looking for another quad of tubes for the amp I highly suggest you consider the 7581A's we are all discussing above.

    The link is there also within my response to Joe Spivey. They are only about $94 and will give you a nice punchy full sounding amplifier - and those are proving to be much nicer sounding than the Svetlana 6L6GC's we have always previously used as OEM power tubes. If the amp needs any testing or you are worried about it in any way please let me know.
     
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  24. RavenDave

    RavenDave RavenDave

    Location:
    Chita, Texas
    What is the resistance reading on each speaker?
     
  25. I'll bring home the speakers from storage monday, try the 9 volt test and multimeter for 4 ohm, I'm trying to hold out till September when zu dirty omens will be available again . If I can't hold out probably go with Tekton Lore's
     
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