My Unhappy Project Phono Box DS Experience

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Stefan, Apr 28, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Yesterday I picked up a new Project Phono Box DS and was looking forward to not only the possibility of slightly better sound than my trusty old Cambridge Audio 640P (no complaints about its sound really) but especially the adjustments since the 640P is rather inflexible with its 220pF-only capacitance for MM and 100ohm-only impedance for MC.

    So I got the DS home, hooked it up and started spinning vinyl with my Project Xpression II equipped with an Ortofon 2M Black. It soon became apparent that something was wrong. It sounded like there was a peak in the upper midrange and greatly diminished highs above that.

    I did some measuring with pink noise from three test records, frequency sweeps, and music. All revealed the same frequency curve: a 6db peak around 5k with a -12db roll-off in the highs bottoming out around 15kHz!
    Phono Box DS curve 2013-04-27.jpg

    Worse, the capacitance settings had absolutely no effect on the curve. Switching through the 47pF 147pF, 267pF and 367pF capacitance settings did absolutely nothing to shift the peak or the trough. I've played around with capacitance plus (like loading plugs) a bit and observed how capacitance changes the position of resonant peaks, so this was definitely not a case of high capacitance causing the peak to lower to 5k. Besides, that would take 1600pF of capacitance! My turntable wiring plus Blue Jeans interconnects definitely don't add up to 1500pF!

    I own three phono stages, the 640P, plus a Yaqin MS12B and an Art DJ Pre II. None of them show this much of a variation in frequency curve. The Yaqin's slightly warmer and the Art sounds a bit compressed, but all three show a similar frequency curve from the 2M Black with a slight peak of 2dB around 18k, just as in the initial reviews of the cartridge.

    Needless to say, I'm returning the Phono Box DS tomorrow! Too bad. I viewed it as a nice flexible phono stage that would not only work well with MM carts but also when I eventually move to MC.

    Anyone else run into something like this?
     
  2. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    Isn't there some sort of user-controlled filter on there? Is this the one with or without tubes?
     
  3. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    A subsonic filter yes, plus switchable gain, capacitance, and impedance. It's the solid-state model. Believe me, I tried all control combinations.

    I brought it back to the dealer during my lunch break today and walked out of there with a Tube Box S and a promise that I can return it if it's not to my liking. We'll see how that sounds. The dealer did think it was a defective unit, especially after I showed him a print-out of the frequency curve I posted above!
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I need a crane to pick my jaw up off the floor. As bad as the obviously defective Phono Box DS unit sounded, the Tube Box S sounds tremendous. New records, old records, they all sound layered with more detail and depth than I thought my rig had in it. The box feels This little box smokes my old 640P! Definitely worth the money. I'm really glad I decided to take a chance on another Project.
     
  5. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas Forum Resident

    Whew, that's a big relief. I want to get a tube preamp, and had my eye on the Tube Box S. I was worried after reading your report - "Oh, great, Pro-Ject is screwing up again!" I thought. Could you please post a graph of the Tube Box, so we could see how it compares?

    When I owned a Tube Box II, I used Tung-Sol and Mullard tubes and really enjoyed them. I liked the Mullards best, but both were a step above the stock tubes. I'd consider the Jolida tube preamp, but the price got jacked up $200 (ouch), so I'm hoping this Pro-Ject delivers the goods.
     
  6. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I could post a graph but it would basically be flat up to about 18k where the 2M Black rises about 2dB, which is exactly what I saw in early reviews of the cartridge and is also reflected in their specs. Mind you, Project's web version of the Tube Box S manual shows typical recommendations (for some strange reason they were removed from the manual that came with the unit) and mention 150pF for the 2M Red. I found that setting the jumpers to just 50pF resulted in the flat up to 18k curve. Trying the higher capacitance settings resulted in a resonance "bump" (technicaly a peak I suppose, but I always consider peaks to be narrower) that moved down through the treble range with each increment and ended up centered around 9.5kHz with the capacitance jumpers set to 370pF.

    I suppose I'll eventually try tube rolling again. I did with my old Yaqin MS12B but didn't notice a dramatic difference. Probably due to the unit more than the tubes. For now I'm just really happy with the sound of the new box as is. I'm quite thrilled with how good it sounds. The high end is especially sweet and detailed, but in the sense of what I consider real detailed, i.e., sounds are separate and naturally distinct as opposed to the treble being goosed to shove stuff "in your face." The midrange blooms out nicely with lots of ambiance. As I wrote on another forum, I was getting decent ambiance with my old 640P, but the ambiance with the Project seems more unified with the music, or the various sounds seem better distributed throughout the ambient field. Plus the bass is deep, full, fat but not overblown. Dynamics seem great as well. Loud passages don't sound congested at all.

    So this whole experience has ended up being a good one. I overshot my budget by about $200 (I was originally going to pick up a Phono Box S, but they were out of stock and the Canadian distributor is in Europe for a couple of weeks, so just like the "bug" to buy a new car, I wanted to get something new. :) ). The DS was $100 more than I'd planned and then the Tube Box S another $100 on top of that. But hey, what I'm hearing now is well worth the $400 (I could have picked up a Jolida JD9 from the dealer as well for $500 but I decided to give the Tube Box S a chance first).

    Time to start redoing all my needledrops yet again! :)
     
  7. laughalot

    laughalot Forum Resident

    The tube box DS is quite Special if you can get one to try you will be happy as a pig in the preverbial.
     
  8. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I imagine the folks at Project would appreciate it if you had a Gort change the title of this thread to reflect the happy ending rather than the initial disappointment :)
     
  9. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Good point. Although maybe it will remind them to have a look at their QC department (not to mention their documentation people. Between inaccurate manual info and sloppy translations on their web site, they need some work done!). Now don't get me started on their noisy motors! :)
     
  10. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas Forum Resident


    Is Pro-Ject reading this forum? Then we should change the name of this thread to, "Hey, Pro-Ject, like, fix the damn motor, buttmunch!"

    Sorry, I downloaded all the (uncut) Beavis & Butthead episodes, couldn't resist.
     
  11. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Reading this makes me really want a DS! Sounds like a great unit.
     
  12. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    If you get a DS that isn't defective, perhaps. I can say the Phono Box S sounds great!
     
  13. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA

    Can you post a picture?

    M~
     
  14. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
     
  15. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Can you post a picture of the new box in your system?

    M~
     
  16. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Not much to see. It looks the same as the one I just posted.
     
  17. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    My bad.

    M~
     
  18. Surge

    Surge Well-Known Member

    To the OP, I think you should try reading the instruction manual before claiming that something is defective.
    For one thing, the capacitance settings only have an effect when you set the jumpers properly at the back (jumper must be set to F/V), and the knob is only used for low output MC cartridges.

    The other claim of the sound being 'distorted' due to a "peak in the upper midrange and greatly diminished highs above that." sounds like it wasn't broken in. Are you aware that tubes need 200-500 hours to sound proper?
     
  19. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Perhaps you should try reading the thread more carefully before posting! The defective unit in question was not the tube unit with a knob on the front but the Phono Box DS, which has pushbuttons on the front. That should be clear by reading my original post.

    You seem to be referring to the other unit I mentioned in passing, the Tube Box DS, which, according to my dealer, had an error in the manual. I've also seen the same problem mentioned elsewhere on the net. Pro-Ject has since apparently corrected the mistake in the manual.
    I have enough experience with tube equipment to know that a +6dB peak around 5k followed by a 12db drop above that is not indicative of a unit that simply hasn't broken in yet! And again, that was the solid state Phono Box DS, not the Tube box S that replaced it.

    However, I will update this thread to state that I traded the Tube Box S recently for a Graham Slee Gram Amp 3 Fanfare. After running the Tube Box S for the past three months and giving the tubes time to break in, I got fed up with a low-mid frequency hump of noise that would appear around 500Hz after a half hour of use. The same thing occured with other 12AX7s I tried.

    I'm extremely pleased with the Fanfare. It sounds like a gigantic step up from the Pro-Jects in terms of clarity, soundstage, dynamics, etc. Now if I could just get rid of that nasty Pro-Ject motor noise....
     
  20. heman__

    heman__ Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    FWIW, I have a phono stage RS and it is great. My only complaint is the 6db gain boost you get using XLR, for what ever reason, isn't there when using RCA.

    Beat the pants off my Dynavector P75
     
  21. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    I had the same noise with the tube box. One channel became noisy after about a month. Tried swapping tubes, tried different tubes, etc. Took it to the dealer and heard the same thing there, even with no input lines connected.
    Returned it for a Phonomena II which is dead silent so far, and has many more settings for gain and resistance loading. Capacitance is limited to only two settings though. So far so good.
     
  22. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I have lowered the capacitance in my Phonomena II, and am also using Pangea power supply with it instead of the wall wart.
     
    Kyhl likes this.
  23. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Thanks for the tip. I was thinking of looking for a replacement to the wall wart. Saved me the trouble.

    I went with a LOMC cart and the capacitance isn't really an issue for me at this time. Maybe will be again someday.
     
  24. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Need a custom cable. PM me if you want details.
     
  25. marcus1223

    marcus1223 New Member

    Hey Stefan, I just ordered(1 hour ago) a Phono Box DS and the consultant on the phone chose it for me. I was looking at the Bellari tube pre-amp. He told me that I would need to give the unit a 100 hr warm up....low and slow like a roast until then. perhaps you didn't give it a chance. I am now wondering if I made a bad purchase. I want to use it with a Marantz PM8005 integrated. the Box is to allow me to use both my Project Debut Carbon red dream table and my Sony PS5x turntable (mono set up) from one amp and one set of speakers, which are Direct Tech towers. I have blue ortofon and mono ortofon. Dose anyone have a suggestion about which turntable should use the Box and Aux hook up, does it make any difference?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine