New Cartridge, new issues

Hello,
I have a Pro-ject Debut Carbon with the Ortofon Red Cartridge. After awhile, I found the sound to be too bright and fatiguing to my ears. I went to my local audio store and they recommended the Sumiko Olympia cartridge and said it would be more balanced and less bright. However, after replacing the Ortofon with the Sumiko, what I’m finding now is that some of my vinyls sound great and others that sounded clear before with the Ortofon Red now sound very quiet and even muffled. I’m not sure what the problem is. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The only thing that has changed in my setup is the cartridge. Thank you!

 

Persevere.
It maybe that you need to adjust to it.
It maybe that you need to add capitance.
Things like arm levelling ,( vta)
Where raising rear of arm will boost high
Frequencies can help.
One assumes dealer has set up and optimised this.
It does appear that both cartridges are vastly different.
If cd sounds fine, then your problem
Is either the Sumiko does not suit
Or needs fine tuning

 

Thank you for the encouragement I am a novice for sure. The new cartridge was professionally set up by the dealer so I'm hoping there's nothing wrong there. What is "capitance" and how would I add more (again, novice here)?

Is it normal for some vinyls to sound more quiet and for people to need to turn up the volume for different records? It feels weird to have to do that for some records and not for others.

Some details on my set up: Pro-ject Debut Carbon -->Schiit Mani Phono Preamp --> Audioengine Powered Speakers.

 

Welcome and please never say vinyls again

 

Check the stylus to make sure it is clean. Check the connectors on the back of the cartridge to make sure they are on tight. Check all other connections. Bear in mind the output of the Sumiko cartridge is lower than that of the Ortofon Red, so you will need to turn the volume control on your amp up to obtain the same overall volume you hear from the Red.

 

Hello and welcome, what is your level of expertise in cartridge setup ? Do you know how to setup and adjust ?

When changing a cart you will need to set the correct alignment and tracking force but also ensure the preamp settings are set correctly for the new cart. If your dealer can do it it would be the best if you don't feel comfortable with the task.

The fact that some vinyls that sounded great before now sound muffled hints towards a bad setting.

 

Yep, biggest difference is the output voltage between the two carts: 2M Red is 5.5mV and Sumiko is 4.0mV which is pretty substantial gain differential. What amp/phono pre are you using and is there flexibility in setting the gain & load capacitance? I'd bump up the gain a little if available and experiment in capacitance between 100-200pF if available. Also the Sumiko likes a slightly higher VTF (2.0g) vs the 2M Red at 1.8g. @Thorensman captured a lot of this as well.

 

Aren't the new Sumiko Oyster carts based on the AT95e? Seems like it based on the specs.

 

This is what I found. Is it not current for the Sumiko Olympia?

• Type: Moving magnet

• Stylus: 0.3 x 0.7 micron elliptical

• Cantilever: Aluminum

• Wire: Copper

• Internal impedance: 1,130Ω

• Load impedance: 47kΩ

• Frequency response: 12Hz - 30kHz

• Output voltage: 4mV @ 1kHz

• Channel separation: 30dB @ 1kHz

• Channel Balance: 1.5dB @ 1kHz

• Compliance: 12x10-6 cm/dyn @ 100Hz

• Recommended load capacitance: 100pF - 200pF

• Vertical Tracking Angle: 20°

• Tracking force: 1.8g - 2.2g

• Recommended force: 2.0g

• Cartridge weight: 6.5g

• Replacement stylus unit: RS Olympia, RS Moonstone, RS Rainier

 

Right. Same stylus shape and VTF. Same output (as VM95e) and signature AT capacitance requirements. It does spec better on channel balance and separation. If the OP has too much capacitance in his rig, that could be the issue.

 

Refit the 2M red & install a 2M blue stylus

 

The actual output of the 2M Red, depending on one's particular example, may actually be higher than 5.5mV. Most of the 2M series has been independently measured to have higher output than spec'd - up to ~8mV in some cases.

 

Ugh, I was gonna buy the Rainier for my son and his Carbon this Xmas. Sumiko HQ said it would work great. I hated the 2M Red when the table was at our house, but don't want to make it worse. The thing at least functioned properly.

Had also wondered about a Grado Green, but feared him having a hum problem. For the compliance-capacitance experts, might a Grado and Carbon arm sound combination problematic?

 

We don't know if there is anything wrong with OP's new cart, or if it's a set up issue, or if they got a dud.

Grados are usually not affected a lot by capacitance, because the inductance is very low compared to some other cartridge designs. Whether or not it will hum is an open question. You'll have to Google for "grado hum database" and see if anyone reported a hum on their Pro-Ject turntables. Compliance wise, the lightweight EM of the Carbon tonearm should pair okay with the compliance spec of 20 cu. I wouldn't recommend this cartridge personally, but some people like them.

 

As always, you da man.

I'm a Grado sound fan, but do get some hum (that I've never heard in the music, trying hard with headphones), so they "scare" me some.

And yes, will follow OP's (hopeful) progress.

The 4.0 output is somewhat of a concern. My son just has an early 2000s Marantz stereo receiver. The phone stage seems to sound nice, quiet, etc, but "juice" could be an issue, I imagine.

 

I think it’s probable that a Grado cartridge would hum on any Pro-Ject turntable that has a motor under the platter.

The OP is going to have to check some things out. Stylus not fully seated? Debris on the tip? Inappropriate interconnect cable for phono? Too much tracking force?

 

So, my Schiit Mani Preamp allows one to adjust the gain settings (30, 42, 47, and 59dB). I believe I have it set to 42dB. I will try 47dB and see if it helps solves the issue. My only concern then is it might make my already "louder" records even louder. That means that I will need to adjust my gain settings for certain records which is lame

Maybe I need to give it time for my ears to adjust...

 

I doubt the output would be an issue unless the phono stage in the receiver is really, really bad. A 4.0mV cart is not going to cause problems with most phono stages. When you start getting to 6mV and higher (as measured, not factory spec) then weaker phono stages can have issues.

 

42dB of gain should be about the right about of gain for a 4mV output cartridge. You'll just have to get used to adjusting the volume on your amp. 47dB will likely result in some increased distortion, especially with records that are cut hot/loud.

 

Yes that sounds good to me.
You may well find after a month of listening to the new cartridge
You won,t want to go back to the old one
Its a fact that with a new cartridge
You will gain improved performance
But lose something on certain records

 

post picture

 

Yes, I am finding that the cartridge makes my good records sound great and I definitely don't want to go back to my old cartridge. I just wish all my records could sound as good as the great ones in my collection. But yes, it makes a lot of sense that different cartridges will emphasize certain aspects and not emphasize others. I also learned very early on that not all vinyls are created equal. I see now that that is certainly the case with cartridges, too. I guess that is part of the analog journey.

Thank you!

And to everyone, this is a great forum. You all have so much knowledge! Thank you for sharing with me and for not shaming this analog beginner!

 

Just noticed the Rainier's output is 5!

 

Ah, the ease and convenience of vinyl...


I long ago learned to not fix what wasn't broken. Cart too bright? Turn down the treble. What's that, no knobs on the amp? Oops.

 

Yes he can. Why not? There are deers, sheeps etc.