New gear inbound - Anthem D2 and Belles 350A Ref amp

Going to try and see how much "better" (or just different?) this setup will be compared to my current one-box, Anthem MRX-710 AVR, receiver solution is.

Powering Dynaudio Focus 260s, mostly analog or stereo SACD played via PC (Roon software).

The main thing I think I'm missing is more lifelike dynamic quality to live or very dynamic recordings. My system plays loud, clean, and clear but I feel like it's maybe a tad forward at times and when it really gets complicated musically, the image suffers a little and the speakers almost feel as if they're not getting the same quality of power or grip as they do when I back off the volume just a little. But then, low-level listening doesn't really feel all that dynamic at all.

So, the D2 retains all that I love about the 710 with ARC, but has a much higher quality analog section as well as better DACs. Fortunately, I do not need lossless surround sound but even if I did, I can get a player with multichannel analog out in the future and take care of that aspect (or do it through my PC but that gets messy).

The amp will be a pretty massive change, going from the arguably pretty darn good amp inside the 710 (it does have a toroidal transformer at least) to the 350A Reference. I'm not sure what the Anthem puts out at 4 ohms but the Belles is rated at 500 x 2 into the 4 ohm Dynaudios so from a power standpoint, it's a sizeable increase. I keep reading descriptions of the 350A Reference as being very dynamic and energetic when paired with Dynaudio so that's ultimately why I took the plunge, along with the paragraph below. I do have my room on a dedicated 20A circuit so that should be fine, as I understand the 350A pulls a lot of current at startup, but not necessarily during normal operation.

Lastly, I actually have an amp already, an Odyssey Stratos Plus with upgrades but here pretty soon I'll have owned it for 4 months and been able to listen to it for 1 week during that time. Otherwise it's been down in Indy getting repaired. Klaus is a very nice man and I enjoy talking to him but I was supposed to have this thing back two weeks ago and I've got nothing, and no follow-up with an update or ETA either. I know he's busy, but I'm just kind of over it by this point. That's one of the primary reasons I pulled the trigger on the Belles amp.

 

And no sooner do I type this up and get ready to send over the payment for the amp and... dun dun dun, seller doesn't accept PayPal. ****e.

 

What version is the D2 ?

 

@Slippers-on Not exactly sure as I don't have it in my hands yet (due Monday) but it's a Statement D2, not D2V. It does have ARC 1 included; not sure what other versions there are of it?

 

Man that Belles is sweet.

 

That's pretty old, fwiw. I am guessing around 2007: Music in the Round #32

 

I am aware but even the most recent revisions are the same outside of video updates and lossless codec support, neither of which I need. They did add a dual core processor at some point but from an anthem engineer, the single core from the older units was never maxed out.

What I'm getting over my 710 is better dacs which is important to me since I go ADA for vinyl. Also getting balanced ins and outs is nice, but most importantly I want multichannel in which is conspicuously absent from my 710. And, if it's no better than the 710 from a Sonic perspective? Back into the used market it goes.

Pisses me off about the Belle's amp. I'm just not comfortable buying used gear virtually without the backing of PayPal. Grrrr.

 

What are you using it for? 2 channel or home theater?

 

There is a huge improvement in ARC2 vs ARC1. Interested in hear your thoughts though. You can also run rcas from the 710 to your amp if you want to try the amp out in the mix. I'm using a Parasound 2205 with my 710 with great success! Also the processor in the 710 is significantly better than what is in the D2.

 

2-channel only.

I've read some contradictory opinions to that (710 being better than D2) but ultimately I'll let my ears decide. That said, I am very interested in how Arc1 does against what I hear with Arc2. I've read the processor in the 710 is overkill, that the one in the D2 is plenty powerful, and for my purposes I won't really be stressing it that much with just 2-channel audio.

I do like that the D2 offers multichannel input where the 710 doesn't, and the D2 has a parametric EQ which I can dial in with REW to fix a few mildly annoying bumps in the 20-500 Hz range.

I decided to pass on the Belles amp. Even looked at a different amp but ultimately, I'm fine with the amplification in my 710 and I'll use that until my upgraded/fixed Odyssey Stratos gets back home. Would rather spend that extra money on music at this point.

And, I will not be the least bit surprised if I end up keeping the 710, outputting to a more powerful amp, and moving on. I got the D2 at a very good price that means I can move it quickly if that's the route I decide to go. Playing with house money

 

Its like anything else, YMMV.

I was originally looking for D2V's and came across my 710 for 1/2 off - easy choice there. Tuning and connecting is more complicated on the D2 and D2v models too, but then if your looking to buy one you already know its not for the feint of heart.

I thought the amp section of the 710 was great though. Not as good as running through my Parasound , but still very very good for a receiver. Anthem did quite a bit of improvements from the 510 to the 710 (or 520 to 720 for the new models).

Keep us posted how you make out with the D2.

 

Absolutely! I'm going in with an open mind, knowing the 710 is pretty darn special and if I'm truly honest, I have a hard time believing a "receiver" is as good as it is.

I actually have a 510 upstairs (not sure if I mentioned that) and while it is fantastic - besting a Denon AVR + B&K 5-channel amp I was using at one time - the 710 is in another league. I, too, got the 710 for a deal, $950 if memory serves, right after the 720's came out. So, at $999 for the D2 and $950 for the 710, it's a pretty fair fight.

I've got the UPS notice that the D2 is sitting at the house waiting for me so, should be a long night of setup. Tonight I'm just going to focus on getting ARC-1 dialed in and get vinyl up and running. Then I'll focus on the HDMI side from my PC.

 

Got the D2, ran ARC, got everything set up - it's reasonably straightforward coming from the 710 but of course there are some pretty major differences. Getting vinyl up and running was no issue.

However, strike 1 - I cannot seem to get my GPU to recognize the D2 as an HDMI "destination" if you will. It just flat out doesn't show up as an audio device. I've trudged around the internet and I've got nothin.

Strike 2 - and this is where you start getting into "room correction black magic," it absolutely doesn't sound like my 710. This is why I'm not convinced I don't have something set up incorrectly, but it just does not sound "analog" like my 710 does even with Arc and bass management enabled. There's this lack of sharpness, almost like the tape used to cut the record was a generation old, whereas through the 710 it feels like I'm listening to the original. It's weird, and definitely hard to explain in text. My first test, as is customary, was RATM debut, all analog Ludwig cut, original pressing. I have that album burned into my brain and I just listened to it last night because I knew it would be the first thing I put on the table as a test for the D2. De la Rocha's vocals sounded almost hazy by comparison to last night.

I then made a mistake and let my impatience get the best of me - mailman just delivered a Japanese OP of Pink Floyd Animals and I HAD to hear it. Well, I've never heard the Japanese pressing so that was a bit of a mistake. It's very different from what I'm used to, so not a good test* But, while listening to Dogs, I felt like the bass was incoherent, sloppy even. I may have two 12's in a small room but damn if I don't have them fast and punchy after all the tweaking I've done... so I figured something was off.

So then I threw on Supertramp - CotC (A&M Audiophile), another album that I am deeply familiar with, and it was the clencher. It was dynamic but it should be effortless, sound coming from a massive, deep soundstage. I did not get that from the D2. And then there was the bass again - just all over the place.

So, I've gone back to my 710 (it literally takes 4 cable changes and turning processing back on for the analog input) for now. I'm listening to that Japanese Animals again and it sounds better, albeit still not one I think I ultimately prefer over my other pressings. But that's a different story.

I'll keep the D2 around, wait until my amp gets here, and give it another shot, just in case the setup of D2 --> 710 (acting as an amp) was somehow causing an issue I didn't fix this evening. That still doesn't fix the HDMI thing; no idea how I'm going to fix that, or if I can.

I'll probably re-run ARC as well. I admittedly tried a few different mic positions tonight with the D2 than I did with the 710. I should have probably avoided that.

But anyway, if nothing else, I learned tonight that the 710 is a rather amazing little machine (and I have to admit, I was kinda rooting for it anyway...).

Todd

 

Todd, I have a Japanese pressing of Animals too I bought back in 2010 and it's a fantastic pressing (at least mine is). There are some pretty big improvements in the 710 with ARC2. Not sure what the differences are between D2 and D2v with ARC though.

 

Using the D2 with the 710 as the amp could be the issue. I'm far from very tech savvy but aren't you using the analog stage of both the D2 and the 710 as the preouts of the D2 are going into the R&L analog input of the 710? I could be totally wrong and there is a direct signal path from the analog input of the 710 to it's amps. I wouldn't be surprised if once you use an external amp with the D2 that the SQ improves.

 

Yea, no excuses it's a pretty hackneyed solution I bought the D2 figuring my other amp would be back, alas it is not. With that said, I am going "direct" in the 710 which should eliminate any processing and such but I still know, even then, I'm introducing variables I probably can't account for. Either way, I will keep the D2 around until I can properly use it, and judge further at that point.

 

So, I figured out my HDMI situation, at least for now. It's not good enough as a "permanent" solution but I can fix it permanently with a very small investment should I choose to keep the D2.

I re-ran ARC and, again, it gets to be a bit mysterious when you start getting into room correction. I ran ARC the same way for the D2 as I did my 710 and now, the results are much, MUCH better.

Even in this odd setup, with the D2 driving the 710 as an amp, it sounds pretty darn good. I could swear I'm hearing more depth to the soundstage, for starters. It feels like the room is 3-4 feet deeper. I also feel like microdynamics are improved, or at least my concept of microdynamics - details of not just sound, but the details inside the soundstage, spatial cues, they seem better to me now. I heard something on the first pass, despite the poor ARC setup, that made me want to dig deeper on this thing. It came in the shape of the Rage Against the Machine kickdrum, of all things. It had a slightly different timbre, if i'm using that term correctly, to where I felt the texture of the initial drum impact moreso than with the 710. Hard to describe, and maybe it's expectation bias, but it sounded meatier and with more body, but not "more bass" per se, the sound of it was easier to relate to a real drum, I suppose.

In any event, I've got a lot more listening to but this thing is no slouch. I can't explain why it sounded so hazy the last time, and I still detect some of that, and I think it comes down to putting one preamp through another. I know it's not supposed to be set up like that, but it's what I have to work with at the moment...

 

Todd, saw this post earlier in the week but didn't have time to reply.
Adding a high quality power amp is definitely a step in the right direction (for lively dynamics) and I hope it works out for you. However in my system all things being equal the source component has a huge impact as well- on both low and high volume dynamic capability.
Once I bought a quality CD player (Marantz SA8005) with its substantial high current toroidal power transformer it was a real eye opener for power and dynamics. It was as if the power from the CD player took over and drove / controlled the power of the entire system and made the sound jump out of the speakers..
Unfortunately it made my vinyl setup (at the time) sound weak in comparison and was quite a contrast and disappointing because LPs sounded better in every other way except dynamics.
I had to continually upgrade the phono preamp to finally get there. from internal, then to a pro-ject tube box (better but still not there) then to the dynavector P75 (again a step up but not quite equal the CD player) and finally the lehman black cube seII with its dedicated outboard power supply / transformer. Dynamics on par with the muscular CD player finally arrived and such an improvement in the sound. A step back to the older phono stages for comparison only confirmed what I already heard.
Ultimately you realize that a phono stage consisting of op amps and a wall outlet transformer can only do so much where it counts the most.
Once you get your amp sorted, I would urge you to investigate upgrading your phono preamp if you feel that the dynamics still aren't there.

 

This is the issue with this hobby when you are fully engaged in it, but in isolation. I'm pretty much trying to figure it all out as I go. When I say that I feel like I'm missing lifelike dynamics, part of me doesn't fully understand what that even means, in all honesty. The only way I've discovered other attributes of this system, like dimensionality, tonality, and "speed" for lack of a better term, was to swap pieces in and out and listen for the differences. I've not heard my system be more "dynamic" than it is today but all the same, I also didn't think I could achieve the soundstage I have today at points in the past.

So, that is to say - I'm very happy, but curious how much further the rabbit hole goes.

With all that said, based on Fremer's reviews of both the Cube SE ii and the iPhono 2, they are both dynamic phono stages but he seems pretty convinced the SE ii, and especially with it's win in his blind listening test, to be a cut above most anything under $1500. I can't find any "head to head" comparisons of the two preamps. I do have the upgraded PSU for the iPhono but it's still just a wall wart. The iPhono 2 is a ridiculously good stage for $500, but the SE ii seems to be an exceptionally good stage for $1149.

So, I'm going to do what any self-respecting, skeptical audio enthusiast would do. I'm going to buy an SE ii from MusicDirect and listen to it for a few weeks. If I like it? It stays and iPhono 2 moves upstairs, with iPhono V1 going out to the used market. If I don't think it's worth the squeeze over the iPhono 2, the SE ii will go back to MD. Seems pretty simple. If I could order the Decade stage from somewhere as flexible as MD, I would, but it doesn't look like I can. The Decade has an improved PSU over the SE ii, which would, in theory, be an even better contrast to the iPhono 2.

 

I really trust Fremer because his recommendations have never steered me wrong- from turntable, cartridges, phono preamps and even music / recordings. I will try to attend his seminar at AXPONA in a few weeks and say thanks.
You're right, it is a rabbit hole. It may never end but it does come to a point where it shrinks and you have to dig harder or stay where you are- but you can become content!
As for experiencing dynamics- you'll know it when you hear it. It requires a linked chain of capability to really experience it fully- the recording, the source component, the preamp, the power amp and the speakers. Microdynamics are key- the sudden shifts in tempo or notes, or when an instrument begins playing it's first note, they come at you with more speed and attack- they seem to burst out of the speakers aggressively rather than mildly.
When you look at phono stages, as they go up in price the power supply and the gain stage becomes the area of most attention. Take a look at a Parasound JC3 chassis and you'll see what I mean! It puts most power amps to shame. You look at it and have no doubt that it will deliver powerfully and dynamically. I just wish it wasn't $3000.00!
You're on the right track with the se ii. Good luck!

 

@avanti1960 I like that you've had success with the SE ii and the Art 9. I'm of the mind that certain equipment pairs well, so I feel like it's a little less risky to try that combo out. It's not risky at all, I suppose, but hopefully you know what I mean

 

IMO, the most critical component, with regard to dynamics, are the speakers.

High efficiency speakers, will provide you with the best dynamics.

A U D I O... P A P E R: WHY THE SET & HIGH EFFICIENCY SPEAKER APPROACH WORKS, MAY 2003, by Steve Deckert (of Decware).

What I am discovering on my own personal audio journey is, that I have been doing many things bassackwards.

Conventional thinking implies that for great dynamics, use SS equipment with really large power amplifiers.

What I am finding is, use small valve amplifiers, the smaller the better. And use high efficiency speakers, 100-dB+

On the tube amp side, I have three powerful Rogue amps. Plus, I have a vintage Fischer receiver, a vintage Scott integrated, which is about 20-watts, using tubes in the EL84 family. I am really loving the sound of the small EL84, tubes, them seem to have a more realistic sound than the larger, more powerful, power tubes.

At this moment, I am listening to a recently acquired Decware Torii Jr., with EL34 power tubes and tube rectification. I have some vintage tubes, installed in everything, other than the power tubes, which are using modern Electro Harmonic tubes. With the vintage tubes installed, the sound is incredible.

I run the tube amps on the A7's, Unless there are huge advances in SS amplifier technology, I will use nothing but tube amplification on the 103-dB efficient A7's.

As for listening at low volumes, and still wanting dynamics, this is where efficient speakers, really shine. I listen to the A7's, at low volumes, sometimes, throughout the night and the sound is wonderful and dynamic. Sometimes, I am running the Mini Torii, rated at 3.9-watts.

 

I think in my case, it's hard to convey what I'm looking for and I may have picked "dynamics" in error. For instance, I was listening to Radiohead - OK Computer last night, first time with the new preamp, and there's a very specific part of Let Down that I use to gauge system coherence and, I suppose, dynamics. And again, I'm listening to mostly amplified rock music (some soft, some dizzyingly fast metal) so my "needs" as far as dynamics are going to be different than someone who's listening to unamplified jazz trios, but I digress.

The D2 is distancing itself from the 710 the more music I play and where it is really separating itself (pun intended) is in soundstage precision, instrument timbre, and its ability to keep a chaotic mix coherent yet still highlight background instrumentation with ease. The breakdown at the end of Pink Floyd - Money, Radiohead - Paranoid Android, and almost the entirety of The Wall come off as even more coherent and realistic than the 710 was presenting (and keep in mind I'm still using the 710 amp section*). It's definitely in the details but the D2, despite having ARC-1 and giving up 10 years to the 710, just sounds very, very good. It's a keeper, especially since I don't need the video functions it is well behind the time on.

*The amp. I do think this is the missing link so far. Don't get me wrong, the amp in the 710 is better than any AV Receiver has any right to be, but a higher-current, beefier PSU amp will likely do a much better job with my Dyn's than I'm getting out of the Anthem. That said, I tried putting an older B&K AV5000 amp in place of the 710 and that thing didn't make it two songs. Anyway, Dyns love current and they love the grip a ballsy amp can provide. I'm hoping I get closer to that once my Odyssey comes back. That will help with what I'm referring to as dynamics, but in reality is just that as the music gets congested/chaotic, I feel like the image shrinks a bit, you lose some of the bite and grit of background instruments, and this also shows up at lower volumes as well.

So, in a sense, I DO think it may be a lack of power.

Also, having had a really, really fun night of listening last night, I'm back to being neutral, if not shading back toward just rolling with the iPhono 2. To the degree it's impacting the sound, I don't really have any complaints. I may still try something else, but only so I can A/B it against reasonable competition and make a more honest assessment of what I like about it.

 

I just hate jumping down the rabbit hole every few years upgrading the pre part to get the needed hdmi connections. I don't care so much about the latest dolby or whatever sound processing, I found little sound value in the last couple of improvements in that realm. Going to something that offers the ability to upgrade to new boards does look very appealing to me at this point. I just don't want to get into that $$$ expenditure as I'm looking at speakers now (between Harbeth and Sonus Faber - no rush on it and keeping an eye open for deals - I don't do retail).

I do think there is a lot more to gain sound quality by upgrading speakers, source, then processing/pre.