New Harbeth C7ES-3- Some Questions

Revisited the Harbeth C7s at my local dealer to try and see if they duplicated the "natural" sound that I became enamored with at the recent AXPONA show.
They were connected to a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II and sounded awesome! They had just the sound I was looking for- plus a deep punchy bass.

However when I brought them home the bass is not nearly as impressive as the demo models at the dealer despite the fact that I have the same amp.

I'm thinking it's because the woofers aren't broken in yet. Does this sound true? How many hours do they take to break in?

Also the stands at the dealer were 20" high, my stands are 27" which puts the tweeter slightly above my ear level (44" when seated).
If I lowered them I assume the bass would improve but I don't want the tweeters too far below ear level.
Any suggestions on how far below ear level the tweeters can go?

Thanks in advance!

 

The reason I asked about break-in time is because the Harbeth FAQ says that Harbeth need zero break-in.
I have never owned a mobile audio or home audio speaker that didn't need (an often) quite extended break-in period.

 

A seven inch difference in speaker height will make a big difference in bass response. I suspect your speaker needs to be at or near the recommended height? The floor interaction is very important for a balanced sound.

 

I don't have these speakers, but they are on my short list....I remember reading a review that Alan Shaw recommended putting them on 19" stands instead of the reviewer's 24" stands. So I'd think your 27" stands are just not optimal.

Harbeth Compact 7ES-3 – Reviews | TONEAudio MAGAZINE »


Beautiful looking finish you picked!

 

Just throwing out some wild suggestions, but you could try the "Mapleshade tweak" for giggles and grins by putting your speakers on the floor with something underneath to tilt the angle of the cabinets so that the tweeters are "on-line" to your listening spot.

That is supposed to reinforce bass performance.

Hey - worth a try, have a beer and see what happens, it is a free tweak.

 

A couple of things. I also used my C7s on highet stands...26 inch to be exact. It out my ears rigth between the woofer and tweeter. I never had an issue with bass.

Your stands will make a huge differemce. I used Sound Anchors three post stands...made of wrought iron.
Absolute game changers.

Lastly, in my opinion, having that large AV rack between the sepakers will compromise bass, and over all performance?

They need to be further away from hard surfaces, otherwise you are going to get all sorts of reflections and smearing.

I think you are only getting about 50% of the speakers capability.

 

i know u have the tools to measure ur room. if you have placed the harbeth at the same spot where ls50 measured best, doest mean that its the best place for the harbeth. id say to remeasure and found the smoothest bass response position.

id let them break in 100 hour also to be sure as ime some new equipments sounds specially weak ans bass light before breakin.

 

Stands should be 19 to 20 inches unless you you are sitting on a high-chair. Bass is very nice in my home. I use 19 inch Sound Anchors which are the stands recommended by Gene Rubin for the Compact 7's.

 

If possible I would play around with different positions in your room. I have the same speakers and have found that the bass can change dramatically with location.

 

The speakers are simply to close to the adjoining surfaces.

 

I would think that the changes are likely due to differences in your room compared to the dealer's more so than the woofer needing to be broken in. Is your room larger or more open to other rooms than where you heard them at the dealer's? My C7-ES3's work great in my 13.5 x 11.5 home office, but lack bass in my larger listening room which is open to the stairwell.

 

I think you're onto something that might be pretty easy for avanti to try. Looks like 3 modular racks & the speakers really could use some air laterally so move one or more racks out then add a couple temporary DIY Home Depot concrete block stands in the the 18 to 20 inch range to lower speaker height. If it tests good no money spent & just get the best stands you can afford.

 

I agree. In the end, if it were me personally, that rack would go.

I would get a nice Salamander rack to match thr finish of the speakers.

Looking at that pic again..that thing is killing the sound.

To the OP...those C7s are beautuful!

 

Theoritically, for LF, that rack should be fairly transparent at least up to 200hz.
But id still try to remove it to see if that helps the sound. I doubt it affect the bass performance though

 

I don't see how these would be able to give you the depth and warmth they are capable of when they are that far away from the floor. Both the tweeters and woofers are just too high. Those stands are just not right for these. Please go to a box store and buy a couple of moving boxes that are 20 inches in height, assemble, tape them then place your Harbeths on them. I know some may scoff but this will put you in the right placement zone and they should sound much more right than wrong. If you like what you hear then go out and buy a nice pair of 20 inch stands.
By the way, are these on your 27 or 19 foot wall?

 

Well, you got the grilles off, so you've already won a bigger battle than finding the right room placement!

It looks like you have the space available to experiment, which I'm sure you will do. Let us know!
-Bob

 

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!
After a solid day of playing the bass is definitely starting to develop. I really like the sound- very balanced and natural.
At this point my main issue is that they look awkward up so high.
Rather than order new stands, I'm going to cut 7" out of the length of each of the four stand posts and threaded rods to shorten them. They are good Skylan stands and are mass filled and spiked through the carpet to the concrete floor.
Even at the current height they solidly support the speakers but it still looks awkward.
Lowering them will drop the tweeters below ear level 6 to 7" but I simulated that and it actually smoothens the response a bit.
The picture doesn't show it very well but the front of the speakers are a good 11" in front of the stands and imaging is very precise. I'll experiment more once I cut the stands down to size.

 

Great that you can adjust the stand height & best of luck dialing them in.

 

That will improve things a lot I think. The tweeter is way above ear-level with a 20" speaker and 27" stands. My floor-standing speakers have the tweeter at about 38". I am interested in those Harbeths as well...let me know how it sounds after you cut the stands down. Your setup looks great though!

 

I'm starting to have mixed opinions about lowering them. The tweeters are currently at ear level for me (44" from the floor, I measured each carefully) and that is from a basic IKEA couch, no high chair! I'm taller than average which accounts for things (6'-2").
The sound is really really nice, smooth and detailed with a high stage. When I raise my ears 7" (equivalent to lowering the speakers) the stage is now lower than eye level and it seems a little less detailed.

 

I never bought into Harbeths on low stands. It always sounded like the music was coming from below the correct and natural
point.

 

Raising yourself - with cushions or whatever - is not equivalent to lower the speakers. It is only an approximation because it doesn't account for the low-to-mid bass frequencies that are reinforced or somewhat emphasized when the woofer is closer to the floor on shorter stands. Speakers of various sizes and driver complements are designed to do best in certain positions, and the height of the bottom of the cabinet from the floor of the listening room is one of the crucial factors. Mess that up too much and the speakers will sound dramatically different (and usually inferior). Position them properly, and magic happens. So when you raise yourself up on cushions, you're hearing the higher frequencies clearly but they're not correctly balanced because the woofer is still too high off the floor. The sooner you setup 20" stands, the better off you'll be and the more like the showroom audition the 7s will sound (if not even better). They're great speakers.

 

Great explanation without getting too technical.

 

Thanks, but there is so much conflicting info about these speakers.
Alan Shaw has posted this from the Harbeth Users Group:

"Actually, at low frequencies the wavelength of sound is long. At 68Hz for example, the wavelength is 5m (about 15 feet)! What that means is that at low frequencies it really doesn't matter about an inch or two up and down on the stand height.
Notice that I said at low frequencies. The situation is very different in the mid to upper frequencies. For example, let's compare the situation at 68Hz where an inch or two made no difference to a frequency fifty times higher - say, 3400Hz, slap bang in the middle of the crossover range between woofer and tweeter. Now, if the wavelength is (approx.) 5m at 68Hz, at fifty times that frequency ( that's 3400Hz) it will only be one fiftieth of 5m which I calculate as 10cms. - about 4 inches.
So, I think this leads to an observation: at low frequencies the stand height (give or take a few inches) has a negligible effect - but at mid/upper frequenciessmall changes of an inch or two doesn't 'do' anything to the speaker itself - what it does do is to reposition the listener's ears below/on/above the design reference axis: just that inch or two will make the difference.
In the special case of the Compact 7ES-3 I found a way (in the crossover design) to integrate the drive units over an unusually wide vertical arc - which means that in the case of the C7ES-3 the stand height is less critical. But - if you are a perfectionist you should try to put your ears on axis (level with) or just a bit below the tweeter: that's where my B&K measuring mic was during the design measurement cycle. Picture attached from which I hope you can just about see the mic and tweeter in-line."

 

Thanks for the great quote avanti - I try to learn something new everyday, so, I guess I've taken care of that chore.