Two very different units.....both great in their own way. 508, as is typical of most SET amps, is much more "tubey" in sound. What speakers would you be running for either option?
Both the LM 508IA and the Leben CS 300XS are great! Yes, very different presentations. I started using the Leben with a pair of Dynaudio Focus 160 speakers (along with the Auditorium 23 cables, a TeddyDAC/mac mini, a VPI Classic/Soundsmith Zephyr, Graham Slee Reflex M phono stage) and then found a vintage (1978) pair of Tannoy Berkeley HPD 385A speakers in excellent condition (the surrounds had been very recently and professionally refoamed) and wanted to see what a more sensitive speaker would be like with the Leben. It was wonderful, and eventually I decided to commission some externalized, top spec brand new crossovers from Paul Coupe of RFC in the UK and this really made the Leben/Tannoy combo even better, bringing the minimum impedance to 7 Ohms. Although I rarely pushed them, there were certain ultimate volume limitations because of the Leben's 15 watts (the somewhat inconsistent Tannoy literature gives various sensitivity numbers for the HPD 385A, from 90, 91, 93 dB). Then a friend bought the LM 218IA (he uses them with Nola Boxer 2 speakers to great effect) and after a few months of marveling at the sound of those 845s (there was a different kind of vibrancy associated with detail and layered dimensionality, if that makes sense) I decided I'd like to hear what a SET DHT amp could bring to the big Tannoys. I narrowed it down tho the 508IA because I wanted to make sure I had enough power for the speakers' 15" coaxial drivers and I found the NFB options appealing in case output impedance and woofer damping was an issue. It wasn't. In fact, the bass is somewhat over-damped at NFB 4 and I've settled on NFB 2 with my speakers. Now we use the Leben/Dynaudio combo in a simpler system in a smaller room. We use it at least 4 days a week in my wife's office which is open to the bigger listening room with the Tannoys on one side. The Leben has an infectious musicality that is very hard to beat, not to mention a remarkably taut and agile bass and a very sweet, light and sparkly treble presentation. It's a fantastic amp that keeps your foot tapping and presents a very whole musical picture. The 508Ia is equally superb. The scale, soundstage, depth and solidity it conveys on the Tannoys is astounding and engulfing. It generates an excitement that really puts you right there in the musical event. The kind of immersive and captivating experience the 508Ia allows makes using this system for "background music" nearly impossible.
Well, I have been running and pair of Rega Rx-5’s with my Leben 300xs for about a year now in my rather large room. I absolutely did not expect it to work, but it does. The little Leben has plenty of power and drive (I had come off about 20 years of Naim with Rega, and it does not disappoint me in the areas I expected it to). I’ve had my eye on the LM219 for a while, but I wonder if, despite it price and reputation, it may give up something to the little Leben that I would otherwise really miss. I just don’t know. I recently heard a pair of Graham LS5/9’s and was blown away by them. I have an opportunity to get a used pair for about $4000, but worry my Leben won’t drive them - they are less efficient than my Rega’s. I know my Rega’s could be a bit more refined. . . I don’t know - there’s SO MUCH I want, and I can’t afford it all!!! I just got a new Ortofon Cadenza red cartridge for my LP12, and I really like it. So, I kinda want the Leben MM stage as well (I have a transformer). The funny thing is, I’m pretty happy with how everything is sounding now. Justin
Update on my situation. The very kind @JeffC sent me some anticables to try out in my system. That combined with a Ken Rad VT229 (JAN 6SL7GT) that I got from Brent Jessee, and the lows are more solid, mids are more liquid and have opened up with more space, there’s more air in the highs and most (if not all) harshness is gone. I didn’t think those two changes would make that big a difference, but it’s honestly a pretty significant step up. Way more balanced and enjoyable.
That's great news @Seafinch. I have been waiting to be notified by tubesusa.com about whether their shipment of Elrog 300Bs have arrived, and in the meantime, I got impatient and jumped on a deal and got replacement 300Bs yesterday - EML XLSs. The soundstage is so much deeper now, it seems the gain dropped. With the stock tube the rear-most sounds were presented relatively closer to the front plane and so sounded louder. Soundstage is also wider, and sounds project forward to the listener more as well. These are extremely dynamic, have extreme bass and great separation thus far. At the same time they are smoother than the stock tubes. I will say the 300B has brought the most change to my system, and according to the seller, the tubes are new, so I will see what break-in brings. I also have an incoming replacement Psvane 805A-T this week, so we shall see how they complement the system. With the EML 300B XLS, the tube cage can close but it does so touching the top of the tube. I wouldn't think that is a suitable mode of operation while listening to music. I've been looking online for extenders that can plug into the holes in the amp, and in turn have the cage plug into them.
This amp is such a mystery. Earlier in the thread a user was regretting investing in some 300B's cause they made little difference in his setup. I've been really interested in some Sophia Carbon Plate 300B's to smooth the top end, but now that I've got the system to a good place I feel like there are a lot of options. Please keep us posted on how they continue to develop - I'm interested.
In my case, the 300Bs brought about the biggest change. The only tubes yet to be changed are the 805s. They brought a higher delta of dynamics, soundstage (in all directions) and bass to the table. I feel they dialed back some of the musicality - they have a less prominent midrange than the stock tubes, and are less forward thus removing some of the intimacy and thereness of voices so to speak. I'll be able to get good time on them over the weekend since I'll be snowed in here in good ol' Minnesota watching my Vikings kill some birds.
I would say this about tube amps - amps that use the 211 or 845 require significantly more expensive parts for the power output stages and transformers. It simply costs a lot more to build a 219IA or other big output amp than something using 300Bs or EL84s. These amps are not necessarily worse sounding. They are less expensive ONLY because they are less expensive to manufacture. If the EL84 puts out 7 watts it only needs a certain small lighter weight transformer. Of course you need a higher sensitivity speaker. I liked my Line Magnetic 219IA but at the end of the day every tube type has a different sound - It's entirely possible you will like the Leben more. I like my AN OTO a bit more overall than my 219. I like the 219IA more in some ways as well - so it does somewhat have to do with the music and which speakers you intend to use. In fact my $800 Kingko KA 101 sounds better in some ways to both of these much more costly amplifiers. Which is why sound for the dollar it's insanely good. Not perfect but then again I am not paying "perfection" prices. If you like Leben perhaps look and see what they offer up the line. You get the sound you like only better.
Finally figured out how to post images on here. I've been concerned about not being able to use the tube cage since I got the EML 300Bs, and the Psvane 805A-T replacement tube arrived yesterday, so I figured out a remedy. I noticed the tube cage uses banana speaker plugs that insert into the amp. I purchased a set of banana plugs that will insert into the holes in the amp and have a hole for the cage banana plugs to enter them. Works like a charm. Now, I need to get two more black banana plugs in order to get rid of the red ones. I'm sure nice metal banana plugs will look better also. The cage sits sturdily as much as it may appear to be wobbly. This is what it looks like without the tube cage. Impressions on the Psvanes will be forthcoming.
Those EMLs are pretty! Thanks for posting that picture. Good to see the fit and the workaround. Have you listened to the capped 805s yet? Really curious about how they sound...
I only have a few hours on the Psvanes, and the first thing I noticed was greater clarity and resolution. Better see throughness with enhanced detail. IMO it brought about a dryness - especially to voices - that I wasn't too happy about. I was experiencing some degree of listener fatigue. To temper this, I switched from level 3 NF to level 4. Unfortunately, the system now seems too warm at that setting and not as resolved for my liking. My plan is to see what changes burn-in brings to the table. Hopefully, its virtues remain and the bad disappears over time.
Another thing you could consider trying is swapping out that 6SU7GTY - I was using one and I think it's higher gain nature might have been some of the reason for my fatigue. When I swapped to the Ken Rad VT229 everything got much easier on my ears without sacrificing clarity/air. EDIT: But definitely let those burn in before you spend a bunch more money.
Thanks for the suggestion @Seafinch . I want to give things about a week to see where they settle. I will definitely consider all avenues at that time. The increase in resolution and clarity was intoxicating for a few hours before fatigue set it. Hopefully, as the tubes burn in, the dryness subsides and smoothens out. I do feel that the NFB setting of 4 robs the system of some clarity and delicacy, so the tube change you recommended may be in order. The search for synergy continues...
Wow! I love the look of those capped 805s---and those EMLs are stunning! Your tube cage solution is ingenious. Reminds me of something I saw Jeff Day do on his site in order to accommodate larger tubes and still use the top cover with his Leben CS 600. Are those just standard banana plugs that you ordered? I want to get some to use with the NOS 805s I picked up but haven't used yet. Are you still planning on trying out the Elrogs? I know what you mean about the NFB settings. When I auditioned the 508, the dealer insisted on setting NFB to 4 because he liked the fullness of the bass sound. This was playing through some not all too efficient new Dynaudios. To get that full bass sound that he desired (to me it sounded a bit too full, mind you), these Dynaudios needed the extra damping that the higher NFB setting provided because of lower output impedance. He let me switch it around a bit and I knew right away that these settings were crucial in achieving the right sound for each listener. You definitely lose some of what makes SET so appealing if you use more NFB (NFB 4 is equivalent to a 12dB decrease), and you definitely don't get as much detail and air. So what I've discovered is that it's best to have my tube determinations revolve around the fact that for me (that is, with my particular speakers, since NFB has everything to do with output impedance and speaker damping) the amp sounds best at NFB 2 (or 3). I think Seafinch is right about the 6SU7GTY. I do love that Tung Sol for what it brings to the party (enhanced clarity coupled with a fullness of sound and a great scale), but it is a higher gain tube and that means I need to be somewhat careful about volume on certain tracks with the NFB setting at 2 since it can produce a brightness that is eventually aggravating. So it really is a balancing act with this amp. Some may find that an annoyance, but I'm actually happy to be able to experiment and to know that I can substantially change the sound with different tubes and different NFB settings. I would definitely wait 100 hours for those new Psvanes to settle in.
@JeffC your impressions mirror mine. I am not enamored by the lack of detail and sparkle at NFB4, and hope things become listenable at NFB3 with the new tube addition. It is, indeed, a great balancing act with this amp, which makes it even the more enjoyable. Regarding the Elrogs, I was looking to purchase from tubesusa.com in December, and was told a shipment will arrive from Germany in January. I learned from George last week that the shipment is delayed until closer to March. I do plan on getting them once they arrive. Interestingly, the price for them has gone up on the tubesusa.com site since December from ~1200 to ~1400. Yes, the EML 300Bs are majestic looking, and ridiculously solidly built. They actually feel like they can take a drop or two and survive intact. Their sound mirrors their build - hard-hitting bass, bigger images, expansive soundstage. For banana plugs, I just went to my local BestBuy and got these guys: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/insign...ugs-4-count-red-black/4499029.p?skuId=4499029 and they work perfectly. Just plug them into the amp, then set the tube cage banana plugs into them. Finally no fear of little curious hands drawn towards the glow getting burned.
After endless research, it sure looks like my new permanent dream amp is now the Line Magnetic 508IA. Unfortunately, it's also incredibly expensive! At least, to me. Might take a year or two to get the funds before I can take one home, though. It doesn't look like Line Magnetic has a single dealer in Canada. The only info I was able to find regarding dealers is for Europe. Does anybody know if the warranty is transferable to people in other countries, for example if I were to buy one from the US either from a dealer or used?
An email to Tone Imports can probably answer your questions regarding the warranty. Or maybe @GoldprintAudio (Taylor) will see this and know the answer. Good luck in your LM journey; it looks like one hell of an amp!
Only *very* slightly above your own 518IA, from what I've all read. Sent an email to TI. We'll see what they have to say. Merely curious in case I opt to buy one used from somebody. There's one on Audiogon for instance at a very attractive price but it caught me off-guard and I am nowhere near ready to buy one. My current amp is an Arcam AVR350 so it should be one hell of a jump if/once I ever get the 508IA.
