Too many great replies here to quote them all, but really great info here - all of it what I was hoping to see. Sounds like it's a combination of all the usual factors everyone chimed in with. I'm pretty blown away by the fact that no one has yet chosen the 518 over the 508, given what a great performer the 518 is, but the unanimous consensus that it kills on dynamics and low end control makes sense. Most of what I've read seems to indicate folks are a little more split when it comes to the 219 vs 508, which in itself is remarkable....
Against my better judgement, I bought one of the used 508ia off Audiogon. It should be here in about a week. I'll be moving on from a First Watt J2. In the past I've used great PP tube amp like Tube Research Lab ST-100, giant killer like Rogue ST-100, ss amp such as ModWright, PS Audio BHK, etc. I'll be happy to share my impression once I receive it. I'm going to use my Allnic L3000 mk2 preamp with LM 508. So, another comparison I'm eager to do is use 508 as an integrated vs 508 as poweramp driven by Allnic. I need some help/feedback from the existing/past users of LM508. I read the entire thread few times. But little confused about some things: 1. If I'm using standalone preamp, does the 6sn7 and 6sl7 tubes are still relevant? If so, I may need to roll them. 2. What is the consensus about the most synergistic 6sn7 and 6sl7 with 508ia? 3. How important is to roll the 300B tubes? Without breaking the bank, which 300B would be a nice bang-for-the-buck improvement? 4. The best 805 tube to roll (say under $400)? 5. What are the most important to least important tube to roll in 508? (Assume that I'm only going to use it as poweramp).
I wonder if that has to do with the solid state rectification compared to the tube rectification of the 518.
I will definitely want to hear the comparison with and without a pre. Apparently the all of the tubes still function
Pre-tubes are NOT by passed on the 508 when running this in "amp" mode so they are still relevant. As to your tube swap questions, I'm likely not much help there but I believe it you read through this thread, there are a few good opinions there for you. Have fun! The 508 is really a nice piece of kit.
i've changed the preamp section to nos rca+sylvania followed by 805a-t followed by royal princess 300b. every section gave a different improvement to my ears but if i'll try to rate them, which i'm not certain how relevant would it be, then the royal princess gave the biggest improvement followed by the preamp section followed by the 805's.
I second that I really like the Psvane 805A tubes from Grant Fidelity. They are around 300 bucks and sound great. Plus Grant gets you your tubes really fast and they are just about the most dependable tube company I've worked with so far. I've tried a bunch of tubes for the 6SL7 and 6SN7. Definitly heard a really good difference when I went with NOS tubes. I used 1952 Sylvania 3 hole "bad boy" tubes and an ECC35 Mullard for the 6SL7. They aren't cheap and they are worth every penny! I have heard the Genelex gold lion 300b's. They are a great value. A definite step up and very affordable for a 300b of that quality. I am currently using Psvane WE300b's but they weren't cheap. I plan to switch to western electric 300b tubes this year when they re-release the 300b for its 80th birthday in September. They will run 1300 a pair.
See, I didn't realize the 219 and 508 were solid state rectified until the other day (they are both solid state rectified, right?). I think you're on to something here, because having owned both the 218 and 518, I can at least say LM implements solid state rectification in the 218 very well. I think the 218 gets short shrift among LM's other, more expensive amps, but I think it is the true value for tone product in the company's line, considering how cheap they can had used. In a (very) few ways on my Harbeths (e.g., playing Sugar's 'Copper Blue' in a big 30' x 40' room with 14' ceilings at high concert volume) the 218 equaled, or dare I say surpassed, the 518ia in terms of composure and control. I've always attributed that last mile of composure at the extremes to it's solid state rectification.
Love to hear your thoughts, particularly with regard to how they compare on tracks that need playing loudly compared to tracks that require extreme finesse rather than dynamics to pull off well.
Can you describe the change in sound with the Royal Princess 300Bs? I've been tempted to pull the trigger on some of those or even the cheaper Sophia Carbon Plates.
Very nice! Are those Cornwalls? How long have you had both, and what tubes are you using? That is just awesome!
The truth is that some people will like one amp over the other. My Line Magnetic dealer vastly prefers the 219 and 518 over the 508 which he actively disliked. But this is Hong Kong and people here listen to different music than Americans typically so much much more classical than rock. It's the same with Audio Note where the OTO is far more popular here where as the SORO is more of the rocker amp and seems to be more preferred in the US. Some will like one over the other. As for what is sold second hand well it depends how many were initially sold and why they were sold. Most people have no access to either bit of information other than they like something else more. I remember comparing a Sugden to a Musical Fidelity - I much preferred the Sugden but the Sugden owner traded the Sugden in for the very same Musical Fidelity I was comparing. So people hear it differently. If you like the 508Ia sound then you like it. If you like the 518 sound better then get that one. My only input here is you listen first and don't buy with your eyes.
I think people do tend to buy with their eyes and reading forums and it becomes a kind of biased hype. I remember back in the 80s people liked to think that if the amp was really heavy then it was a sign of quality or if had the rosewood side panels and piano black finished it was obviously good because of the outstanding construction and fit and finish. I bought a Pioneer Elite receiver which looked awesome but in reality the regular Pioneer receiver (non elite) was the identical machine but looked boring. With tube amps - it's awfully hard to buy a tube amp inside a case - people like the visuals of seeing the tubes glow. It's somewhat the same with panel loudspeakers - it's pretty cool to own a panel so every time you have a guest you get to explain how they work because most regular non audiophiles have ever seen an electrostatic or a Magnepan. And then there is price - wow you spent XYZ on an amp - that is more than I paid for my last car. Everytime I go auditioning I think of the movie Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Indy has to select the cup of Christ from the shelves of beautiful cups and if you choose the right one you get eternal life - choose poorly and you die. So the blingy ones are the ones that kill you and the plain one made of wood is the cup of Christ and grants eternal life. None of this has much to do with LM but just general commentary. Tube amps are conversation pieces and look cool and generate commentary - but not all are created equal and sometimes the ugly duckling or the Plain Jane tube amps have considerably more meat on the inside than the ones with fancy casework.
Absolutely! Honestly, I can't believe the amount of people who do. A recent example is of a forum member who wanted to buy only an amp that has a volume knob and maybe one button. It didn't matter if other amps were cheaper and sounded better. The look was the ultimate goal. I can't ascribe to that as I'm the complete opposite where looks don't matter one bit. To me, it's all about sound and everything else comes second. Some people like the look of the 508IA while others don't. Myself, I don't think it's that eye-catching with its industrial look and the McIntosh blue LED meters are certainly nicer looking than what LM went with but like I said, it's all about the sound so I'm nevertheless interested. I still read that line of thinking around here on a weekly basis. I remember a CD player from a top-of-the-line brand whose insides were revealed to be nothing more than a mid-fi CD player with very very minimal changes but charging something like 1-2K more. I'll cop to that. Compared to, say, a Manley Chinook or an EAR 834P, both of which are tube-based, the Decware ZP3 certainly *looks* nicer, primarily because it's not just a plain box but with the nice glowing tubes for everyone to see. As to which one *sounds* better is up for debate.
in this sea of recommendations you can only compare or gamble. i was aiming for the takatsuki tubes but had a very good deal on the royal princess that i just couldn't pass. i do think that the stock 300b should be replaced and i believe the carbon would make for a great improvement as well. would i spend a 1200$ for the princess? i'm not sure, not at the very beggining at least, unless i had the rest of my system in place and the extra money to spare. i could say these tubes give you more of everything but that would probably be the case with many other 300b's compared to the stock ones. in would say the royal princess gave a real boost to the sound, more crisp, more clear, more engaging. there is a sense of more drama to the sound that just brings more fun to the listening experience. it's easy to get carry away in this endless comprasions between the royal princess/we/takatsuki.....etc. i ended up with the princess and very happy with the result. hope this helps.
@bugo403 - I agree with you that the 300B upgrade was the most influential. I would also like to add some clarity to my statements regarding the Psvane 805-AT, which has led some to believe that this is a fatiguing amp. It really isn't. Like every transparent tube amp that allows you to hear what the tubes add to the circuit, the sound can be tailored to one's tastes. I gave the 805-ATs a few days and they did smoothen out a bit. However, I have gone back to using the stock 805s, which I think are less lean, and more full-bodied compared to the Psvane 805s. The Psvane 805s combined with the stock 300Bs was completely non-fatiguing, just not as enjoyable as the EML 300B XLS and the stock 805s. Horses for courses. The Psvane 805-AT reminds me of the EML 2A3 mesh plates I used on a DNA Stratus headphone amp back in the day - extremely airy, resolving and revealing. IMO If you combine it with other tubes on the same spectrum, you fall of the deep end. I can imagine the Psvane 805-AT will be immense with the Elrog 300Bs since the Elrogs are known to have a magical midrange, lit from within quality , combined with a fleshy, natural sound, but still very transparent. In no way does this amp intrinsically have a fatiguing sound. To add to the speculation of why I think people move away from this amp - I feel it is psychological. There is always the nagging feeling that it can be improved with a preamp. One is loathe to believe that an integrated at this price point can be as good as it is inevitably leading to experimentation with attenuating DACs and other preamps. This ultimately leads to selling the amp and going with separates. In most people's minds, if they are going to be purchasing a separate preamplifier, it is psychologically difficult to hold on to an integrated and not use the preamp section. It feels like wasted resources/money. All IMO. I myself have started looking into either the TotalDAC or Lampi B7 to replace my current DAC in order to use their volume attenuation rather than what is inbuilt. Just my $0.2
There are always alternative amplifiers with different sounds. And I am perfectly fine with people who disagree when they have heard both products in fair competition. As much as I may like the KingKo KA 101 the reality is it's not an amplifier most people will get to hear or compare and I actually rather loathe conversing with people when they say XYZ is better when XYZ is some tiny no name outfit no one can audition. Having said that - some people are more risk taker types and might like to take the gamble if they are humming and hawing about spending $4000+ dollars. For the same price of that integrated - an Audio Note M2 preamp for $3000 and the $800 Kingko used as a 12 watt power amp would be an interesting battle. I owned the 219IA for three years and it's a great amp - but the KingKo is not at all outclassed. I don't think stating an opinion is shilling. The price discrepancy seems large but the KA 101 hasn't gone through importer and dealer mark-ups like bigger brands do. The KA101 is $800 or so shipped to your house - but if it went through an importer and a dealer it would be $2000+. Further, a bigger brand like LM has much deeper after care support in that there are dealers and importer. Ie; you have limited risk. The KA 101 isn't particularly practical for the average user - indeed it's kind of like buying a kit - you can't hear it first. You rely on word of mouth and even here - it's basically me. And to tell the truth I hate that kind of responsibility because I don't really want people blaming me if they buy the thing and it goes wrong. I can't do much about that except to report on what I hear and the reliability of the model that I've been provided. I think there is room for both kinds of companies - and for both kinds of buyers. The one nice thing I will say about the King is that it's a nice headphone amp and small enough for a desktop - so if a person can't afford a $4500 518IA - the KingKo might be a nice choice as a tide-me-over. And who knows - if I am right - it may be good enough that the $3700 they save can go to something else. If I am wrong - well it's still good enough to fill in and eventually become the headphone amp or pull second system or computer system duty.
I'm keeping an eye out for a used/demo 508ia to come on the market, so very interested to see how this thread continues to progress. Looking forward to hearing @Radiohead99 's thoughts once he's had a chance to spend some time with the 508.
There was one a few days ago on Audiogon. IIRC, it was selling for $3500. It was the 120V version. A fair price, IMHO.
It was a good price... there was a second one available also. I got to them both about 24hrs too late.... Hopefully another becomes available before too long.
A friend of mine came by over the weekend with his Purity Audio linestage, which has 1:1 unity gain. It uses a pair of 12Au7 tubes. Upon first listen, things sounded overly warm and fuzzy, so I replaced the stock 805s with the Psvane 805-ATs and I must say the sound being produced was the best I had heard using my current system configuration. The Psvanes are so revolving of the nuances in a recording comapared to the stock tubes. I have renewed commitment to make them work in my system. A preamp definitely takes the sonics up a notch, and not necessarily anything ultra-expensive. My buddy mentioned he had purchased the linestage used for $1000. The soundstage was extended with higher degree of dimensionality and room ambience.@bugo403 - I can't wait to hear your impressions with the Allnic L3000. It's definitely a candidate for me short of finding a used Coincident Statement Linestage that happens to have a remote control. Additionally, I have an RCA 5691 6SL7 Red Base incoming to see if it will have synergy with the Psvane 805-ATs. My past experience with the RCAs was they had a strangely mellower, yet transparently detailed sound. They also definitely have less gain than the Tung-Sols.
