New Production 300B Tubes

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Raylinds, Nov 12, 2014.

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  1. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer Thread Starter

    Steve,
    You couldn't be more right. I just finished building my AN kit 300B monoblocks, and they sounded so much more dynamic and authoritative than my Woo Audio WA5. The monoblocks came with Shu Guang Chinese 300Bs. I then swapped my reissue WE 300Bs from the Woo Audio amp and the monoblocks sounded great, but more polite and laid back. It had more authority the Woo Audio, but the difference in the 300B tubes was very apparent, and I'm not sure I like the WE reissues in them. I am going to live with the Chinese tubes for a while before trying some tube rolling.
     
  2. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I haven't compared a lot of 300B's, but like Steve said, the Full Music tubes are pretty good. I love my mesh plates and they aren't too expensive. Sophia's are Full Music.
     
  3. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I liked my Full Music meshies too, but liked the W.E. reissues more.
     
  4. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    You may look at Psvane Treasure 300B.
     
  5. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    My Meishu Silver Phono came with PSVane 300Bs. It sounded good, but the Sophia Royal Princess 300Bs were superior in every possible manor. It felt like I had bought a better amplifier. Great investment!

    However, I have been told that the Elrog 300Bs are even better. Not cheap. Cheaper than the Japanese Takatsuki, but still expensive.

    Unfortunately tonight a bad fuse took out my Sophia tubes : (
     
  6. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer Thread Starter

    Wow that's terrible news! I have also heard good things about the Elrogs. I am going to keep the tubes stock for a while and let everything burn in and settle down before I start rolling tubes, but the temptation will be great.
     
  7. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    Psvane or Psvane Treasure?
     
  8. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I can't afford those.
     
  9. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I'm not sure, I will have to check. They actually say Audio Note on the box I think
     
  10. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I just checked and they are just PSVane. What is special or improved about the Treasure?
     
  11. Henley

    Henley Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    The Sophia's are also coming from the same Psvane factory, correct?
     
  12. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer Thread Starter

    They come from the TJ Full Music Factory, Sophia carefully tests and selects the top quality tubes from that factory and the rest are sold under the TJ Full Music name.

    From a Positive Feedback article http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue57/300B.htm:

    In 2001 Richard (Wugang, owner of Sophia Electric) talked to Mr. Zhe Sheng Liu, a retired Chinese engineer, who had designed a 300B tube that had been manufactured in a factory located in Tian Jin, China, under the All Music label. Production of the tube proved problematic though, with the tubes having a high failure rate, and the production line eventually had to be shut down.

    Richard was impressed with the basic design of Mr. Liu's 300B vacuum tube, and thought that it had the potential he was looking for: competitive with the WE 300B in the mid-range, while besting it in the frequency extremes. In 2001 the two of them established a relationship intent on solving the design's reliability problems. Working together, with Mr. Liu providing the engineering expertise, and Richard providing guidance on the voicing of the tube, he thought they could make Mr. Liu's unique 300B vacuum tube a success.
    Richard told me "When I visited Mr. Liu's private workshop in Tian Jin, I was impressed with his determination to make 300B tubes." Richard discussed with Mr. Liu the list of issues and solutions he thought would make Mr. Liu's design the success he thought it could be.
    Richard told me that "Mr. Liu is a very wise, intelligent, and experienced technician that had graduated from a top Chinese university, Qi-Hua University. Mr. Liu has studied the design of Western Electric vacuum tubes very closely and was determined to make the very best 300B vacuum tube ever designed, and even at the age of 66 he had a desire and determination that is not commonly seen in the Western world anymore."
    As A. R. Balaton said in his article on the Western Electric method of manufacturing 300B vacuum tubes, "The proper choice of materials for all components of a vacuum tube is not a sufficient condition for optimal performance. The careful processing of these materials before assembly and the precautions taken during assembly are important considerations in order to obtain the desired performance and long life … Ultimately the quality of the tube rests on the manual skills and experience of the assembly workers. The construction of a large triode tube like the 300B largely consists of a succession of the manual operations described. The enormous amount of labor in the fabrication of a 300B helps explain the high cost of such a tube."
    Richard came to the same conclusion as Mr. Balaton and Western Electric: he told me that in order to meet the quality standard he required for Sophia Electric—one comparable to or bettering the fabled Western Electric—the wholesale price of the 300B tubes would come in at over three times the retail price of other typical 300B tubes sold on the market, and that was before the extensive burn-in, testing, and grading process that he would do at Sophia Electric.
    Richard told me "In order to help Mr. Liu meet the high quality standard required by Sophia Electric, we invested in the very best equipment for him, and the very best technical experts available to run our Quality Control department for the new 300B tube production. We provided constant feedback to Mr. Liu on tube demand, tube quality, and new product development. Mr. Liu is not an audiophile, he's an engineer, so I worked closely with him to improve the tubes' audio performance."

    Richard told me "As we all know, not all tubes are created equal. Just like any complex hand-made product, tube-to-tube performance will vary, so I have established a set of procedures that gives our customers the best-of-the-best in quality and performance: First we obtain the very best tubes they produce at the factory, then we run the tubes in for another 20 hours at our Sophia Electric facility to stabilize the tube plate structure before re-testing & grading, which is based on dynamic GM testing, a static emission test, and a distortion test. Finally we plug the tubes into a Sophia Electric amplifier for another 10 or more hours of run-in, and then re-test them with a scope for output and noise level before the tubes are ready to ship out to our clients. This gives me the confidence to say that we at Sophia Electric offer to audio enthusiasts the very best sounding and the most reliable 300B vacuum tubes available in the world today."
     
    Henley likes this.
  13. Henley

    Henley Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Does this also hold for the Sophia 845's? I don't think TJ Music makes 845 do they?
     
  14. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer Thread Starter

    They
    started producing 845s in 2008:

    The TJ/Full Music company is a privately-owned tube factory, established in the mid-1990s, in the Tianjin Province of China, by a pioneer of the Chinese vacuum tube industry - Mr. Zhesheng Liu (now in his 70's). Still run day-to-day by the founder (and his son), TJ has specialized in producing WE300B replica tubes... but in recent years, has broaden their tube range significantly.
    NOTE: The owner Mr. Liu, is a university graduate in vacuum tube technology and has worked several years for NEC producing Cathode Ray Tubes. As proof of his inventiveness, Mr. Liu holds several patents in the field of vacuum tube technology.
    In the past decade, TJ Full Music 300B tubes has earned a solid reputation in the international hi-fi market through OEM brands (such as Sophia Electric), and has been reviewed by many major hi-fi magazines such as EnjoyTheMusic.com, etc. Of particular note, the TJ Full Music 300B/SE tube is considered among the best 300B tubes in production today
    Since 2008, TJ Full Music has expanded into a 2nd manufacturing facility in Tianjin City, China to manufacture high-end gold pin, box-plate 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes. Audiophiles who have tried the 12AX7 and 12AU7 commented that they are even superior to the Telefunken ECC83 tube. In late 2008, TJ Full Music has released their 805/845/211 MKII series, with oxide plate rather than graphite plate.
     
  15. timztunz

    timztunz Audioista

    Location:
    Texas
    All of this makes my head hurt and glad that I have a Plinius amp, and I read every post trying to follow along.
     
  16. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    They are their premium tube. I think they have Black Glass. I have 12au7 Treasures and they are really nice tubes.
     
  17. paulchiu

    paulchiu New Member

    Location:
    New York City
    Hi all,

    I had an accident that damaged a pair of WE 300B (1960s) so during the last two weeks, bought some new 300B as well as got on wait list for the Takatsuki 300B and EML 300B XLS. I use the Cary CAD-300 SEI Amp. I mostly listen to headphones like HD800, Audeze LCD3 and others with the Cary amp but has recently enjoyed a pair of KEF LS50 with the Cary.
    What I found interesting last week was how good a pair of Russian Genelec 300B Gold Lions sounded on the Cary. First, It had better bass (organ and piano) than what I remembered with the WE. While I think female voices were more vibrant and creamy with the WE, the much much cheaper Genelec Gold Lions were not bad at all, especially with speakers.
    So I now wonder if my Cary amp has some inherent design in the output transformers that disallow some performance from the output tubes.
    If this is, then I maybe wasting money on the EML and Takatsuki valves.
    What you all think?
     
  18. timztunz

    timztunz Audioista

    Location:
    Texas
    This is funny! I bought a pair of 300B monoblocks and was searching out information on tubes and find my own post! :rolleyes:
     
  19. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I can't speak to owning a pair of Cary mono blocks, but I can tell you how better 300B tubes sound in my Meishu Silver Phono integrate tube amp sounded and how the Audio Note M6 preamp and Kassai mono blocks sound with better 300Bs.

    I found a huge improvement with the best 300Bs. If you found that they were bettered, then your older pair were simply worn out. My experience has shown that the best sounding 300Bs are:
    WE 300B Reissues
    PS Vane Reissues
    Sophia Royal Princess 300Bs
    Shuguang Black Treasure 300Bs
    Stock Shuguang 300Bs.
     
    scottschecter likes this.
  20. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Don Parkhurst,

    Have you resolved the problem with your amp? You mentioned above that a bad fuse took out your tubes, but, it seems more likely that causation ran the other way, a bad tube or other parts failure caused the fuse to blow. I hope that you don't lose any more of these tubes.

    I don't run 300Bs in my system, except for a pair that are used as RECTIFIERS in my Viva Fono phonostage; for that crazy purpose, I use Sovteks. But, I have heard quite a few types in various amps. For a bold, punchy sound (not as mushy in the upper bass and lower midrange as most 300B), I like the Kron tubes a friend has. I think these are somewhat rare. I know someone who runs old WE 300B and insists they are better than the reissued version, but, I have not made any comparisons myself. I like the open sound and large soundstage presented by the EML meshplates and I bet they would work well in Audio Note amps which tend to run output tube gently, something that EML tubes appreciate (I ran EML 2a3 meshplates in my Kageki amp).
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Reopened
     
    Nascimento Brasil likes this.
  22. Nascimento Brasil

    Nascimento Brasil Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sao Paulo/Brasil
    Steve, thanks for reopening the topic!
    I have no previous experience with SET or with 300B.
    I recently bought an Airtight ATM300, I'm very excited about what I'm hearing!
    At the moment I am listening to Takatsuki 300B and WE year 2002 (loan from a friend)
    In my system, the two tubes play very well, WE have a delightful med of "silk", Takatsuki has more detailed med, WE have deeper bass, Takatsuki has more severe bass and more dominance over the amplifier, especially if many instruments playing together and at the same time, my conclusion, they are different, but they are two very good tubes, I would be happy with either one, but for my system / ear, I prefer Takatsuki!

    Now I want to buy a reserve pair of 300B, but every time I read forums and reviews, I get more confused!
    One thing is certain, for having a Takatsuki, I do not need to buy a WE, Takatsuki is enough for me!

    I have sympathy with Elrog and KR, but a lot of people say that they are not reliable!
    I read that Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z are cheap, have good audio quality and are reliable!
    I read the two pages of the topic, but would like more opinions!
    Please, does anyone know if Elrog remains unreliable?
    Any thoughts on KR-300B Ballon?
     
  23. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    I'm just curious. As compared to your typical 1960s Tube amp, a Fisher, EICO, Sherwood, etc, how does a 300 tube amp sound? what are the differences?

    Thanks,
     
  24. John Mee

    John Mee Forum Resident

    Location:
    West of Carthage
    I (as do several others here) have both Elrog and AN 4242e (by PSVane) iterations of the 211/VT4c tube. Based on that experience (superb quality and much lower price than the Elrogs), I suggest you wait until the AN 300b tubes, which are currently in development, are available. There seems to be a very good chance they will be world beaters.

    As to Elrog reliability, the early ones were pretty unreliable, but that seemed to have improved before Elrog went bankrupt. For example, one of my Elrogs died immediately, however the replacement (and its mate) have been going strong for a few years.

    According to Thomas Meyer, the purchaser of Elrog (Company ), there have been several improvements made to the Elrog tubes after the purchase in August of 2016.

    Regardless of these improvements, as I noted above, Elrog 211 tubes are much more expensive than the AN tubes, so by inference the same may apply to the comparison of the 300B tubes, once they are released.
     
    spartree and Nascimento Brasil like this.
  25. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Completely untrue! Be careful with what you write.

    Elrog HAD reliability problems until the factory was sold. Since then, no reliability issues whatsoever.
     
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