New vinyl that is the same as the loudness war CD, but people think sounds better

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by dlokazip, Mar 8, 2018.

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  1. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    It’s marginally better on vinyl. Very marginally. And fatiquing on both.[/QUOTE]
    I do wish Giles had taken less artistic license. Minimalist is best (a la Steve Hoffman).
    Jeff Carlson likes this.
  2. marcb

    marcb Forum Resident

    DC area
    It’s marginally better on vinyl, IMO. Very marginally. And fatiquing on both.
    NorthNY Mark and dobyblue like this.
  3. Dennis Metz

    Dennis Metz Born In A Motor City!

    Fonthill, Ontario
    Delusional :cheers:
  4. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Yes. I do apologize and get what you are saying now. I have no knowledge to impart on the like of digital vs vinyl, (when it comes to how they were recorded or mixed or more tech-y stuff) generally. And I appreciate input from those who can give me further insight, and just for fun the subjective opinions that give me a smile.

    Cheers from an "old timer",
    uzn007 likes this.
  5. Mr_Vinyl

    Mr_Vinyl Forum Resident

    Yes, if the original recording was bad, not much can save it. On a side note, the Opeth records are nothing (in the positive sense) like the cd's.
  6. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    That's why I said "Singular ultra rare cases excepted of course"

    There are specific releases that miraculously get a unique master - per physical release type - but that is not the norm.

    I checked out the Roger Waters a while back - the CD and download are identical

    See the comment section

    Album details - Dynamic Range Database

  7. DPM

    DPM Forum Resident

    Nevada, USA
    Lyra cartridges and Parasound phono preamps aren't known for warming things over.
  8. agaraffa

    agaraffa Forum Resident

    I know I'll probably get a lot of **** over this, but I think a lot of it is just perception. Regardless of whether it actually does, if people believe that vinyl sounds better, than it does. I should also say, there's nothing wrong with that. As long as you're enjoying yourself and your hobby, who cares. I have a pretty big digital collection and used to insist on only having lossless files. For years that's all I was interested in. A few years back I did some research and a lot of investigation and comparisons, and realized that I personally can't hear the difference between a 320 kbps mp3 and a FLAC file. I converted my entire collection to mp3 and haven't looked back. For me, it's all about the music... I don't care if I have the best sounding version there is. I know there's a lot of audiophiles here, so that's probably not a popular point of view, but that's okay, everyone's different. I should also mention that I've had tinnitus since the early 90's, so I'm sure that also effects my ability to perceive the tiny nuances that makes one version sound better than another.
  9. AppleCorp3

    AppleCorp3 Forum Resident

    I was going to comment using this very same example. Buckingham McVie is an excellent sounding album and far superior to the CD.
    joshm2286 and Chemguy like this.
  10. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Fair enough. I do disagree wholeheartedly, but so what? Let’s enjoy the music!
    Metalrob and agaraffa like this.
  11. Mr_Vinyl

    Mr_Vinyl Forum Resident

    I know the cd and the download are identical except for the actual sample and bit rates. I was referring to the vinyl. That's where the difference is.
    joshm2286 likes this.
  12. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    Maybe. But not always. I agree that many CDs sound quite good and sometimes even better that vinyl. I just happen to have a better TT, than CD player so it may be an unfair comparison. But I do love to watch that record spin round and round!

    You're getting sleepy....sleepy...

  13. Waymore Lonesome

    Waymore Lonesome Forum Resident

    I was thinking about this the other day, I could have sworn I once read a mastering engineer saying that he would introduce a cassette stage before mastering to the CD to take away some of the harshness. Considering that there's usually not much information at 20khz and up, and that good cassette recording can get that high anyway, why would CD's ability to get up to 22.05khz change things so much?

    I've got opposite situation where some cassette sourced material on CD played back through particular players sound exactly like the cassettes, warm, round and sweet.
    anorak2, Keith V and joshm2286 like this.
  14. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Maybe not, but surely they impart a sound of their own that is different from your CD player.

    It's also possible the redbook files were futzed with before the lacquers or DMM plates were cut. FWIW I have not heard that bootleg. I generally do not buy bootlegs.
    anorak2 likes this.
  15. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    This is true, but I have read people touting the DR database to prove the vinyl is less compressed which is completely unreliable IMO (I've seen differences of 4+ when I know the CD was the cutting source) and also have read those opine that even if the info isn't available, "most" new releases are mastered better on vinyl.

    I try not to make blanket statements about this, but I think it's pretty obvious that "most" releases don't create separate masters for vinyl and if you can't find a separate vinyl mastering credit the safer assumption is there wasn't one.
    Tsomi and tin ears like this.
  16. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    Agreed, the compression is the same on both, the difference is in the limiting. In my experience that means the difference is going to be between 0.5~1.9dB.

    Meanwhile we see differences of 8dB between artists that are creating two separate masterings, like Dream Theater's 2013 release which had a DR5 CD and a DR13 24-bit stereo download, both digital so capable of being accurately measured with the DR meter.

    Very disappointed with Peppers and I do love a great surround mix, in this case the 2014 Mono is still my reference.
  17. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    Absolutely correct. See MOFI's recent 2LP 45rpm of Brothers In Arms, very well reviewed and the master used was 16/44.1 PCMs.
  18. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    The Loudness Wars refers specifically to a lack of dynamic range due to excessive and aggressive dynamic range doesn't refer to a recording being "loud" but rather the problem when everything is loud.

    Dynamically intact masterings of well produced and mixed recordings will make you want to make it loud, it's a glorious feeling. :)

    DR5 masterings make me want to turn it down, which really sucks as I enjoy listening right around 85dB average most of the time.
    dlokazip likes this.
  19. boiledbeans

    boiledbeans Forum Resident

    I'm not sure about the cassette example, but I do remember there was one major album which was pressed to analog then recorded back to digital - Arcade Fire's The Suburbs.

    From wikipedia
    The Suburbs - Wikipedia
  20. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Forum Resident

    Fort worth tx
    I just recently purchased Santana's Greatest's the recent 2018 140 gram vinyl release with a download code. This thing sounds it was cut from a compressed cd.
  21. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Forum Resident

    i think some folks have an emotional attachment to vinyl that over-rides what they actually hear. but some mastering in all formats has become a little silly
    Max Florian and tmtomh like this.
  22. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Livonia, MI
    Deleted a couple of posts.

    Reminder - If your take amounts to "Vinyl is BS" or "Digital Sucks", then you are thread crapping and trying to turn this into a generic vinyl vs. digital thread. Please keep your comments at least adjacent to the OP's idea.
    stereoptic, lemonade kid and jon9091 like this.
  23. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient Thread Starter

    Austin, TX, USA
    That's unfortunate.

    I have a pristine copy from the 80's (barcode on the back, plain white inner sleeve). It sounds wonderful. (I'm sure someone will tell us that the first pressing sounds even better.)

    With vintage recordings, we have that reference point. Somebody is bound to have a copy that shows what the album can, or should, sound like.

    Unfortunately, with new albums, the options are more limited. In many cases, we don't even know if the trouble started with the basic tracks, let alone the mixing and mastering.
    B-Mike and Dr. Funk like this.
  24. lemonade kid

    lemonade kid Forever Changing

    It is getting out of control...

    I Have both formats and love both. I just grew with vinyl and prefer the old sound over the new brickwalled stuff.
    stereoptic likes this.
  25. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Forum Resident

    New Mexico USA
    Part of what's confusing me is that the topic announced by the title of this thread and the topic as proposed by the OP at the conclusion of his first post, quoted above, are two different things.

    As far as the thread title goes, has anyone so far provided a single well-supported example of a loudness war CD with a vinyl LP version that sounds exactly the same, along with quotes or other evidence that "people think the vinyl version sounds better"?

    But the bit quoted above is not about loudness war CDs and LPs that "sound the same," but loudness war CDs "that may or may not sound better on vinyl."

    Meanwhile, everyone is happily ignoring the confusion and just bringing a whole bunch of familiar Team CD vs. Team Vinyl tropes to the party and forcing the Gorts to work harder than a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest.
    hodgo and stereoptic like this.
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