SH Spotlight Newbies getting started playing vinyl, please avoid mistracking & resulting groove damage!!!

I've skimmed this thread. I have a Lyra Delos cart on a 9" Pro-Ject carbon fiber arm. Set up at max recommended VTF with a Mint LP Best Tractor and a Fozgometer for azimuth. So... I'm confident my set up is correct. I do lots of needledrops and am usually very happy. However, every now and then on certain records I get mistracking on a few sibilant "S" sounds. Rarely IGD, but has happened on a really hot cut. So, does my cart suck, a bad match for the tonearm, or is it likely the cut?

 

Your Delos uses the same Namiki-sourced solid boron rod cantilever and line-contact stylus as a number of great tracking and tracing cartridges, for example, the Audio-Technica AT150MLX and all of the JICO SAS styli. Not the absolute all-time best in terms of tracking ability but excellent and a lot better than most others. Plus the tracing accuracy of that stylus is the best or close to it. So I think that IGD on only really hot cuts is most likely due to the pressing. The distortion is probably cut right into the groove.

Now the sibilance could be from cuts that are a little too much for the cartridge or cartridge/tonearm combination and so you could be hearing it mistrack a little. On the other hand, the Fozgometer doesn't guarantee perfect azimuth from a physical standpoint. It's for setting azimuth electrically. So the stylus could still be leaning to one side or the other and that can lead to sibilance at times. Very long and narrow styli seem to be especially sensitive to physical deviations from perfect azimuth, IME. Raising or lowering the tonearm height can help quell distorted sibilance too. Even without blaming the pressing or recording, there's a slew of other contributors to sibilance too. It can be tough to completely eliminate.

 

Thanks for this - I figured that this was the sound of a damaged LP, but wanted confirmation and you just supplied that.

I think I've been fairly lucky with my used LP's so far, but I definitely have a few that sound like this. Luckily from the dollar bin, so it was worth chancing it. And all my LP's I personally purchased prior to 1985(?) sound like this, probably due to a badly worn stylus on a mediocre turntable I had at the time.

 

Thanks for the info! Luckily the Delos build quality is so immaculate, the physical orientation of the stylus looks perpendicular to the groove when the Fozgometer reading is correct. Increasing the tracking weight to the maximum 1.8 actually helped a bit. As far as the arm combo, the resonant frequency was in the correct range using the HFN Test tracks, but otherwise I wouldn't know if it is an improper match. Although most of the time the Delos is a beautiful sounding/tracking cart, I guess I have to accept it can't track every single sibilant "S" (it's not on every record, and sometimes only once or twice per record). Also, what do you consider to be the best tracking cartridges?

 

You're welcome. You have one the all-time best trackers listed in your profile. Well, it could at times be one of the best but the quality control on those Shure V15VxMR styli was pretty spotty. Some styli didn't track very well and could sound very cloudy or dull. Other tracked okay but picked up too much surface noise. Hit and miss. I had runs of both good and bad styli when I had my VxMR. IMO, things really went downhill before Shure discontinued it. While the older Shure styli from 1980s were better, they're suspensions are starting to dry out. For example, the Shure ML140HE was awesome but almost all of the remaining styli are dried out and virtually unusable.

I think some people, including reviewers and enthusiastic owners of certain cartridges, confuse "can be coaxed into tracking very well" with "an excellent tracker under a wide variety of conditions". Having owned a slew of cartridges and various turntables, some cartridges just have that extra tracking ability "headroom" that allows for exceptional tracking and handling of sibilance without all the tedious tonearm matching followed by hours of fine-tuning. Even so, there are plenty of reports of people using higher compliance cartridges with the lighter 9" Pro-Ject tonearms with great success. So if you want to experiment with some cartridges that are still available and by all accounts are known to be excellent trackers, then the Denon DL-S1 and Soundsmith Aida might be of interest. I've heard needledrops and scoured various forums and reviews but no have personal experience with those. They're both more compliant than the Delos, which means a lighter tracking force but with no loss of tracking ability plus less record wear. The Ortofon 2M Black also comes to mind.

 

Yikes, I have been using a 1960's Garrard 'table with a Shure M44E (still has the original cart, but I replaced the stylus for good measure) since I've been into vinyl (about 5 years or so). I hope my M44E is not doing the same damage as Steve's did! I don't hear any unusual noise that I can tell, but I guess it'll be too late when I do. It's not my main TT any longer, but I still use it in my living room system, so I'd like to figure out if it's ok or not. Earlier in the thread there was mention of using a test record to check if it's tracking right. Is there any particularly popular test record I should get?

 

Some things to point out,

Not all cartridges aimed at DJ/Broadcast use are garbage. I'd put the venerable Stanton 600 and 680 family as the best workhorse cartridge. Mine track superbly and have been easy on records. But I also use a 12" tonearm in superb technical order. If you eliminated broadcast cartridges, the Ortofon SPU and the Denon DL-103 would also be in that category. Mistracking is never good.

 

Thanks for the bump!
Lots of good reading here.

 

you guys got me all worried now, I am a newbie to vinyl, how can I check everything on a project debut carbon besides with my ears?

 

So should I ditch my Shure M31E? I never hear any mistracking.

 

So I have two turntables I use now and both have the Shure 97xe, current top of Shure's line. Went through the 4 styli I have today before hearing some clean looking Living Stereo Shaded Dogs I found at a thrift store, didn't want to risk damaging my records. Only one stylus had any loss of 'grip' or focus, it clearly had the most use. One good thing about the damper/brush on the 97xe, it give you a good clue as to needle wear. I use it all the time. If the brush looks frayed, I know that cartridge got a lot of use. My 97xe stylus with a worn brush was the stylus with audible wear.

 

I have an US$850 cartridge on an US$400 turntable and it works flawlessly. Of course, the cartridge is properly aligned and VTF / anti-skating are correctly set.

 

and that's the key. Most of it is alignment.

 

I have a Zenith Console from 1962,last year for tubes,that has what is called a Micro-Touch 2g arm.It may be different from the one in the stand alone record player you had.This arm was supposedly only used on their top of the consoles,from '62-'66.Not on stand alone record players.

Did your arm and cartridge look like this?

This console was rescued almost five years ago next to a dumpster.Blonde wood,Danish Modern cabinet,that also needs refinishing.It is in need of a complete restoration.I have had a couple of people offer to restore it,but they backed out after I told them the changer and the speakers are hard wired directly into the amp,and the amp itself is inside of an enclosed wooden compartment.I do not know if this console can be restored without completely taking it apart.

 

Very cool! I would LOVE to find one of those for my '63/'64'ish Grundig Tube Console with early FM Stereo Multiplex. I need a high quality ceramic cartridge changer from that era. This would probably be better than an old Dual, but probably should stay German for originality.
Thanks for posting - Very interesting.

 

Get a Jico SAS for any of the V15 series carts to keep them tracking and sounding superb.

 

The SHURE M44C/7 ain't bad either.

 

Indeed, and a classic through the years. And used by everyone from early Stereophiles, broadcasters, jukeboxes, and by many.

 

Thanks, Steve. Btw, I'm considering buying the Ortofon Concorde Niteclub which has a "special elliptical" stylus. I know it's a Dj cart but IYO, will it ruin my grooves? I'm currently using a spherical in the same brand of cartridge.

 

The Nightclub is decent, but tracks a bit too heavy for my liking with an elliptical. Get a Shure M 44-7, M 44-G, or M 35x, they are in practice superior options.

 

Hi, here is what the typical DJ cartridge does to records. Just scroll ahead to 3:30 then compare to the beginning of the song. The distortion is called IGD (inner groove distortion) which becomes progressively worse as the stylus mistracks the inner groove area near the label. This is the area where mistracking and distortion, and groove wear occur first. I have advised on the linked channel to replace the DJ cart. I hope he does, since his records are (were) beautiful specimens. (for evaluation, quality speakers or headphones suggested)
I hope this helps,
Steve VK

 

Without looking through this thread in detail - for newbies $300 AT are a bit rich. I would suggest the AT95 or the Rega Carbon ( AT91). These will NOT damage your records if set up properly using an alignment protractor and balance to achieve correct downforce. You will not have IGD (unless the record is damaged previously). Also get a decent TT and avoid the Crosley type things as the arms are dreadful. Also avoid DJ tables with those short arms for back scratching. I suggest minimum is an entry level Project or AT120. These should be fine with MM cartridges. Alternatively a used SL 1200 , vintage Thorens or Dual (but check arm is OK by someone who knows or buy from a trustworthy source).

 

AT 95 e is not styrene friendly, however. And a bit lacking on 45 RPM tracking ability. These singles have a lot of level on them, and demanding to track. The Shure M35x has a lot lower tip mass too.