SH Spotlight Newbies getting started playing vinyl, please avoid mistracking & resulting groove damage!!!

By cart, I think you mean stylus? The cart isn't doing anything to harm the/any LP. I use an KAB/Ortofon ProS40 and it's fine; no alignment necessary and the sound is great.

 

The Ortofon Concordes are fine, their DJ styli too often made to be bombproof at the expense of record life sometimes. The conical styli their best in DJ versions.

 

As a newbie this thread worried me a bit. It took me a few listens but I think I did eventually hear the inner groove distortion, which was most apparent on the vocals. Her voice is smooth at the start, but by about 3:30 the vocals are sibilant and "crunchy" sounding. Is that what you're referring to as inner groove distortion?

I am planning to pick up a Clearaudio Concept with the MM cart. It's supposed to be pre-installed, aligned and tracking force, anti-skate, etc. all set at the factory. Nonetheless, do I need to check all this when I receive the table?

Also, I've been given a couple hundred old LPs, 45s and 78s by my father-in-law. Many need serious cleaning, and I was considering a VPI 16.5 or similar for that (any recommendations on that appreciated, preferably no more than $700). Some of these appear to be in decent shape, others maybe not. I have no idea what equipment these were played on, but probably nothing great. There are some good 60s titles like Dylan, Kinks, Beatles, Stones. Some mono and some stereo. Question: am I damaging the stylus by playing worn records? I understand I should clean the stylus after playing with a Zerodust or Magic Eraser (really?) and a brush and possibly a liquid cleaner like MoFi LP-9....right? I already read about the double-Y connector for mono, but will a mid-60s mono LP track alright with the Clearaudio Concept MM cart?

Trying not to get too bogged down and intimidated by all this. I used to just play records on a Fisher Price portable player when I was a kid. Didn't do much adjusting or cleaning! Since then it's been cassettes, then CDs, and for the last few years mostly downloads with a few CDs sprinkled in (like the Beatles in Mono, a few DVD-A and SACD titles). I am excited to play some vinyl records again, but it looks like there's a lot to do to have it sound right and not damage the records or the equipment.

Thanks!

 

What is a good on-line source for cartridges? I have a Regar Planar 3. Any recommendations in the not-above-$400 range?

 

Yes, the stylus. Some really cheap cartridges will accept only cheap styli, such as certain DJ carts. I do not have any specific examples at the moment, but they exist.

 

Hi snorker!
Yes, the crunchy, edgy sound is IGD. The distortion is almost always accompanied by high frequency loss too. The distortion can "fool" the ears as the distortion is higher frequency content not contained in the recording.

Used records are always a crap shoot. As the collector becomes more experienced, the wear can be identified visually. In my experience, only about 5% of all the used records out there are going to play halfway decently, then down to a smaller number that play like new. Most people originally owned mass produced record players which imposed wear on the record at the very first play. The records were expected to wear out and they did.

Record collecting can be at various levels, perhaps just casual, just enjoyment of the music. The record is what it is, noise, pops, and distortion from wear. From the hi fi enthusiast's perspective, listening to vinyl becomes an event, a wonderful high fidelity experience as the music presents more dramatically (or realistically) with full dynamics, frequency range, etc, which brings sheer joy to the life of the listener.

Both the record and equipment must factor to appreciate the fidelity vinyl can produce. So the collector must be vigilant to select only unworn used records, (minimal previous play) and perhaps reject those with wear. It's realistic to expect with the typical collection, that most will have suffered groove wear, even physically well cared for records. (what they were played on makes the difference) In the search for used records (thrift, yard sales, or purchase of entire collections) there will always be those great finds, ultimately unplayed records or played on a vintage audiophile system that preserved their NM (near mint) state.

One thing to look for is spindle wear. Regardless of how clean the groove may appear, spindle wear is the forensic evidence the record was played on a stationary spindle, the type that's typical of the mass produced record player. And almost all of them were equipped with a low compliance ceramic cartridge which chewed up the groove.

You're making the right decision to wet clean the records. Most collections have been subjected to atmospheric fallout, dust, airborne kitchen grease, maybe cigarette smoke, and just airborne resins found naturally... repeated play causing ground in dust driven deeply in the groove. Only a wet clean can get rid of it. Any used record with wear has a chance to play acceptably well. Sometimes I am surprised.
Keep em spinning,
Steve VK

 

Actually, "total" stylus size is also important here. Most cheap styli are glued to a "carrier" on the cantilever which adds to the total mass of the stylus.
If your stylus is "naked" ie. has been fixed directly to the cantilever without an additional carrier that holds the actual needle, record damage is usually much lower. The total mass of the stylus is at its minimum.
The Ortofon OM series is a good example:
OM 10 for example uses a glued "cheapo" stylus. You can easily see the difference with your naked eye to the more expensive OM 30 or OM 40. The 30 and 40 have tiny styli - the improvement in sound (and removal of distortion) is impressive.

I have had may TTs in the past. The damage to the record is highest with ceramic systems and huge elliptical styli. This is true for most of the 60's and 70's "cheap" record players. My DUAL P53 (with 1214 player) for example has a tracking weight of 4.5g (and it has a ceramic system).
I know that i damage my records in the long term. I play cheap records (which have some damage from their previous owner(s)) on it anyway.
Works for me.

 

Do you happen to know how the styli on my Shure M44C is attached ? Would not mind it being just glued to the cantilever because in that way I would not have to worry about a stylus rubber suspension getting stiff from time alone since between my many cds and concert dvds lps are getting less and less played these days.

I only ask because after several hours searching online I could not find any info.

 

The M44C has a 0.0006" spherical tip with a bushing mount. Here's a handy link where Shure provides a suffix list that decodes the mystery for you: http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3507/~/shure-stylus-suffix-list-and-definitions

For the lowest mass, you want a nude mount stylus. However, be aware that many, many fine cartridges use bushings to mount the stylus to the cantilever, though the very best are nude mounts. The bushing is made from some sort of metal; I don't know what Shure uses, but Grado uses brass for their bushings. The rubber suspension is on the cantilever tube, not the stylus itself, still, your concerns for the rubber getting stiff with age are well-grounded, but I'd say if you use your turntable a few times a month, you needn't worry about that. The rubber suspension for the stylus assembly should last for many years. In fact, I've been using a NOS (new old stock) JVC 4MD 20X cartridge in my quad setup lately. The stylus suspension is just fine and the cartridge was made in 1975. BTW, I looked at the stylus under my stereo microscope and discovered that the stylus itself is nearly a gem-quality diamond: it is a clear, blue-white stone, beautifully cut. I haven't seen that nice looking of a stylus in many years.

A word pertaining to the topic of this thread. I know Steve and others have already said this, but it doesn't hurt to reiterate it again: If you're using an elliptical or line-contact (Shibata, Van den Hul, Micro-Line, etc.) stylus to play your records, proper alignment is absolutely essential. If you're unsure how to do it there are several threads that will give you advice about how to do it, and I believe Michael Fremer made a video showing how to do it.

 

Thanx so much man !!!

 

You're right. I believe the majority of music collectors out there buy used and thrift store albums. I know I do. I treat myself to ONE new Lp every payday, that's it. However, the remainder of my albums are used or inherited from family. That being said, I've purchased very few duds. Most sound amazingly detailed for stuff that's been around the block a few times, or perhaps around the world. We have very good Lp inspectors at our local record stores and with 'my' careful inspection it's usually a win-win for me.

 

I also found this article online, on a website called Vinyl Asylum, I copied the portion that interested me. The gut who wrote it is a retipper :

The suspensions rarely failed until the '80s; yes, the 1980s. Shure, very popular, defiantly outsourced too early. It is too bad; they had the world by the balls with the most popular stage mic...Their outsourcing reduced quality, quickly. Their thin cantilever equipped carts, like V15III and M91ED, M95ED and M97ED, then V15-IV and later V15-V failed terminally, too quickly, with failed suspensions and cantilevers. Suddenly, the world believed old cart suspensions harden with age. Nonsense ! They harden when poor quality rubberized suspensions are used. It is still happening today, with high end models, from too many companies. It's an outrage !

Granted, some very vintage carts have dried up and stiffened over (LONG) time, but not like the Shure "within two years" syndrome. Ironically, having retipped dozens and dozens of much earlier vintage Shures, their earlier vintage rubber never failed. People, please, listen, but rejoice ! Old carts are worthy ! I use 50 and 60 year old carts, with original rubber ! If their suspensions failed, it would have everything to do with storage conditions and their very old age. Dry, desert states dry up rubber, yes.

So my new old stock '77 USA-made cart might well perform better with the supplied stylus than with a brand new, mexican-made N44-7 replacement. Besides going for over U$ 30 down here (complete cart over 100, believe it or not) it might last me 2 years at best ? The climate here is far from dry so I think I'll keep it using since it exhibit symptoms of giving up the ghost ?

 

Ahh, but those Mexican made Fender basses perform just as great as a USA made. But that's a whole other blog and topic.

 

If the suspension fails, you'll know it, trust me. The tell-tale sign is when you place the stylus in the groove and the cantilever flexes waaay too much or collapses entirely. Audibly, you'll notice that the sound is very distorted or there is severe mis-tracking. Of course, the bad thing about that is that it could potentially damage the record, but I've been playing vinyl all of my life and I've never had that happen. I have had a stylus fall out of its bushing (it was a Realistic/Shure cartridge), and all that happened is that the arm slid across the record; didn't even leave a mark.

I think you can safely continue to use your current stylus, but you can order replacements from Japan (from JICO) that are very good quality, or at least the ones for Audio-Technica cartridges are. I usually keep a couple of spares on hand just in case.

 

Thanx a lot. This is EXTREMELY helpful info to me. No one ever told me this so clearly, and believe me, I've asked around and conducted long, fruitless online research. My cantilever seems to never flex, at least visually. Never heard of Jico, but will try to learn about those.

 

Yes, Every OEM Shure ED diamond (nude mount) is also clear gem stone. I recently sold a Kenwood K-5000 with a Shure M95HE. The stylus is clear, and it tracks like an animal!

 

You're welcome. Here's the link to their English language website: http://stylus.export-japan.com/

Their prices are not cheap, but not super-expensive, either, about $30 plus S&H, for a replacement for your cartridge.

 

Yes, so does my JVC cartridge as well as my AT-440ML, which also has a really nice looking diamond stylus. The JICO replacements I use for my AT-14Sa are very good, and well cut, but the diamond styli on theirs don't look like gems. In all fairness, they don't need to be to work well, but I think they last much longer the better quality they are.

 

A mexican made N44-7 costs U$ 30 in Argentina, so I'd gladly pay for sh/hand. and taxes for one of those. Thanx !

 

I'm definitely NOT a newbie. I have been spinning vinyl since the 70s. But I have to tell you that I've never really had an issue with mis-tracking. When I was in HS I used a cheap BSR milling machine (errrr turntable), and I'm sure that did damage some of my records. But I got a Phillips table pretty quickly with an Ortophon cart, and then on from there.

My question is, how easy is is to really do permanent damage? Like will one play with a poorly aligned cart damage an LP.

 

Pretty easy in that way.

 

My Mum gave me a copy of Magical Mystery Tour she'd picked up from a table sale. 80's pressing, looked very clean, excitedly I played it and found one channel was wrecked, totally unlistenable. Kept it for the cover and book, complements my lovely 70's German pressing very nicely.

 

My first (apparently clean used) copy of Bowie's ¨Young Americans¨lp was unlistenable. Both channels were shot. I'd bought it to replace my defunct 8-track cartridge of the same title. Not only constant crackle but the signal was distorted. Luckily I bought a lot from that shop so I got a full refund. It appeared someone had played it with a nail

 

Thank you for your interest in our styli.
Our N44C [e007408] is US $30.00 and ship to Argentina for $18.89. The total
cost would be $48.89, but be advised that additional import taxes and
customs fees may apply.

Sincerely,
Seth Kolon / JICO

 

Now you have me worried.I am having my Dual 1219 restored,and I bought a new M97 for it.