Next Turntable - Rega P3 vs Technics SL-1210GR

can't you also get some VPIs in your price range? I don't think you should confine yourself to these 2 choices, especially like someone said they are pretty much opposite on the spectrum.

 

ah i see in a later post you mentioned some others. You might want to determine what qualities you like and dislike about your current setup and then resarch what options would best strengthen/minimize those things. not that ie will be to easy to find consensus on that...

 

Not quite accurate. The SL-1200 was originally introduced as a consumer model, and was quickly adopted for use in discos/clubs because of their fast start up time and resistance to feedback.

But the new ones have nothing in common with the old ones except the dustcover. All the other parts on the new ones are redesigned.

That said, I would (and did) buy a Rega.

 

A agree with your assessment of thin sound. Regas do indeed run a little fast but, unless you have pitch perfect hearing, you will not be able to detect.
Wow and flutter and speed variations are far more detectable by the human ear especially on instruments like piano (sustained notes). I'll take a TT that it's speed is slightly off mark than one that can't keep speed.
I've also recently mentioned in a different thread that depending on stylus type and VTF your cartridge uses and tracks at you will have enough stylus drag to slow things down significantly.
Read Michael Fremer's assessment on P3 in his review on his website, Analog Planet.
Everybody worries far to much about Rega's running slightly fast.

 

I believe you are right. I stand corrected.
I was aware of the new and complete redesign of the current high end Technics offering. Maybe, Just maybe, someday I will give one a spin........
I was deeply disappointed by their new components' performance (amp, pre-approved, integrated, speakers,).
Just another Japanese manufacturer taking a stab at gaining a slice of the market pie, playing heavily on past reputation.
I would buy a Marantz component system anytime for a fraction of the price over those. They would actually sound musical, and like music.

 

The problem with Rega tables for me has little or nothing to do with the fact that they run fast -- I mean unless you compare it to another table, you'll never know. It has to do with the fact that they ring like a bell and feed back that ringing into the signal (and don't have great motor isolation or room isolation either) -- masking low level detail, imparting a false (and in my experience fatiguing) sense of liveliness etc. I had an old Planar 2 years ago as my first "audiophile" table, and the ringing used to drive me nuts, and everyone was praising these decks and I thought I was crazy, then last month I read Herb Reichart's reveiw of the new Planar 3 in Stereophile:

I was curious about the possible side effects of Rega's strategy of connecting the platter bearing, the tonearm mount, and the motor directly to a light, rigid plinth. So I tried my own little test. In the spirit of quasi-science, and with the platter spinning at 331/3rpm and the Planar 3's stock wall-wart supply, I listened to the plinth and the RB330 bearing housing with a stethoscope.

The sound of the vibrating motor was shockingly loud. When I listened again, this time with the TT-PSU supply, the apparent frequency of the noise had dropped by a couple of octaves, and by about 50% (–6dB) in volume.

Then, with the phono stage turned off and the Rega playing an LP of Gregorian chant, I held the stethoscope to the plinth. I could make out the words the choir was singing. I couldn't believe it...


***

...I tried the stethoscope-on-plinth test on the Roksan Radius 7 turntable ($2500): It was approximately 94% dead silent. The Palmer 2.5 ($9300) was 98% silent. And when I put my 'scope on the armboard of my Linn Sondek LP12 Valhalla, it was the quietest of all. Who would have guessed? You know the audiophile expression ink-black backgrounds? The Palmer 2.5 is totally high-end: It produces ink-black background spaces and w i d e dynamic expression. In other words, music emerges from an extremely low noise floor. ​

In my experience the old Technics SL1200 sounds the opposite of "thin." It sounds kind of overly warm and bloated in the upper bass and midrange like wooly tonearm resonances in the 250 Hz range kind of hang over everything. I saw a chart from one of the magazines of the SL1700 tone arm's resonances, and it was quite stark -- a really broad band of ringing from around 225 Hz to 5 kHz (then more bands of ringing at around 9 kHz and 15 kHz), with a particularly big (30 dB) peak at around 225 Hz (a frequency which RIAA equalization is boosting by another 7 dB or so). I think the SL1200 arm was the same one, yes? If so and this chart is accurate it certainly explains a lot of what I hear from those tables.

 

Looks like Rega's unveiling a new MC cart that's only about $30 more than an Exact 2. They're debuting it at the Bristol show today:

Moorgate Acoustics on Twitter

 

[QUOTE="AmericanHIFI, post: 15975421, member: 73697"]A agree with your assessment of thin sound. Regas do indeed run a little fast but, unless you have pitch perfect hearing, you will not be able to detect.
Wow and flutter and speed variations are far more detectable by the human ear especially on instruments like piano (sustained notes). I'll take a TT that it's speed is slightly off mark than one that can't keep speed.
I've also recently mentioned in a different thread that depending on stylus type and VTF your cartridge uses and tracks at you will have enough stylus drag to slow things down significantly.
Read Michael Fremer's assessment on P3 in his review on his website, Analog Planet.
Everybody worries far to much about Rega's running slightly fast.[/QUOTE]

I don´t agree at all. If anything the 1200II isn´t thin sounding. Can´t imagine what You find not thin sounding. The 1200 has bass and upper bass resonances that will create peaks in this area. Also in the upper frequencies there are resonances that will boost some freq ranges. This will also create distortion.
Try to get an even frequency response from 30Hz to 15kHz with low distortion and You will see.

 

definitely interested in that, thanks!

 

I would go with the Rega.

 

Don't put a stethoscope on a 1200 or you'll bring it to the ED. It's also noiser than the RP6, depending on where you listen. I am glad someone else has done that though. Makes me feel less of a freak. Project tables and the VPI Scout are also pretty loud.

I completely agree with your description of the 1200's. I've always thought the sound was a bit on the dead side and it was best matched with a bright cartridge. Mine currently has an AT440 on it.

 

Make it a Bourbon, please. And a Garrard 401, if I can help it...

 

I don´t agree at all. If anything the 1200II isn´t thin sounding. Can´t imagine what You find not thin sounding. The 1200 has bass and upper bass resonances that will create peaks in this area. Also in the upper frequencies there are resonances that will boost some freq ranges. This will also create distortion.
Try to get an even frequency response from 30Hz to 15kHz with low distortion and You will see.[/QUOTE]
Easy there, taking it a little personal, are you? This os just my experience. And not just once. Maybe this is your dream TT. Sorry if I offended.

Very well built deck, average sonics.

 

They used to ring. With the RP series on up that went away. Thats what the phenolic resin brace was developed for. I personally don't hear any ringing or 'false sense of detail's but who knows......

I am approaching 50 years of age and started playing TTs in Europe around 14. Owned countless decks and currently own about 12.
In my opinion Rega has come a looong way in TT design, technology, and execution. It's certainly my go to choice for sane money.

 

Well Reichart tested the latest P3 with tbe brace.

 

Easy there, taking it a little personal, are you? This os just my experience. And not just once. Maybe this is your dream TT. Sorry if I offended.

Very well built deck, average sonics.[/QUOTE]

Did it look like it was my dream TT?

 

Did it look like it was my dream TT?[/QUOTE]
Certainly so based on your linguistic reaction. Maybe we have a culture and language barrier. Be well fellow member.

 

Certainly so based on your linguistic reaction. Maybe we have a culture and language barrier. Be well fellow member.[/QUOTE]

That is very likely.

 

Apparently, the thousands of happy Rega owners on this forum simply neglected to listen to their plinths with a stethoscope. How silly of them! They need to get their hands on some stethoscopes, and quickly, to dispel a vicious myth that the tables they've been enjoying for years are decent. Come to think of it - I'd better go get one myself, since I own a Pro-Ject...

 

So, generally, if you like your trusted turntable, but are not happy with liking it, you can always find something to not like about it, simply by purchasing a stethoscope - the budget option. If your budget is loftier - there are always microscopes, oscilloscopes, CT scanners, and MRI machines, to name a few...

 

No, of course not, the stethoscope only reveals the source what one should be able to hear listening to the music -- a high noise floor from motor noise making detail and low level dynamics at the PF range, an artificial sense of liveliness, a kind of etched quality to the presentation of music from carts that aren't already warm and soft, problems with acoustic breakthrough, etc. If people don't hear it, or hear it and like what they hear, that's their preference. No one can tell them what to like and what not to like. People rave about a lot of things I don't get myself. But audio reproduction and turntable design isn't mystical or accidental. A better turntable -- one that will track better, have a lower noise floor, present a wider dynamic range, have the audiophile "blacker blacks" from which the music emerges, etc. -- will better isolate the stylus groove interface from unrelated movement, a major source of which in turntables is the motor, and there are ways you can determine to some degree how well (or poorly) a turntable design does that pretty starkly, like listening for, feeling for, or measuring motor noise transmission.

Personally, I had a Rega turntable years ago and while the arm turned out to be good (especially after some mods), the darn table rang like a bell and was perpetually trying to understand why and what was going on because it was noisy and distracting and called attention to itself and was overly lively (like playing a bright splanky Telecaster, which is great for a guitar which is an instrument but not for a turntable, which hopefully is getting out of the way as much as possible). And that Reichart test was an eye opener for me. Made perfect sense. Explained was I always heard. It wasn't 'til years after I had the Rega table that I really started to read about turntable design and the mechanics of it that I started to understand a little bit (and just a little, I'm no mechanical engineer) how substantial the impact is of even the minutest vibrations and resonances other than just the minuscule movement of the stylus in response to groove wall modulations, and how substantial differences are among turntables when it comes to reducing the transmission of motor vibration and torque ripple, and terminating arm/cart/record resonances, etc., differences that can be laid pretty bare when you stick a stethoscope on the plinth and you can hear the music playing clearly. The plinth obviously is acting as a soundboard and reflecting that energy in the system.

 

I tend to listen to my turntables via my ears.
Although, my wife has a few stethoscopes on hand being a healthcare professional. I might enjoy 'the highs and lows' better.

 

LOOL....

 

I haven´t seen anyone forcing somebody to do anything with the TT. Most are most likely not that interested in doing any improvements, but some are.
It´s horses for courses.

 

Nothing wrong with trying to cost reduce their products (e.g. plastic bearings) while marginally improving quality. I like and respect them and their products. It's just that if you know engineering (my profession) they are doing basic rudimentary stuff that any other decent company would do. I love the look of the carbon fiber spoked plinths. Very nicely done. Their products are great for what they are and to who they offer them to.
But when they ignore things like easy VTA adjustment, Azimuth adjutstment capability, unipivot offerings and a drive system that eliminates the sub platter and speed control- they fall in a level below the competition.