Audio Noise Reduction on Home Video: Comparisons *

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Moshrom, Jan 17, 2020.

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  1. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

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    For a few years now I've been comparing the home video releases of various films after noticing that sonic noise reduction is an increasingly common practice in film even after being mostly phased out from music. It's mostly old films that have been affected, of course, but I think many here would be surprised to learn that some of the more reputed names in the catalogue market--Criterion and the Warner Archive, for example--have been attenuating high frequencies systematically for many years now. ...But the issue is far more extreme than that, beginning more upstream of distribution at the restoration stage.

    For those wishing to get to the gist of what I'm trying to say: Listen to the short clips comparing Seven Samurai (1954) and Raging Bull (1980), two popular films that should draw some attention!

    (Some of the oldest posts weren't volume-matched in the best way--which I'm in the process of updating--but the general findings still hold true.)

    Link to site.
     
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  2. Not only on home video releases, also on movie soundtrack releases.
    On late 2018 La La Land Records, a label dedicated to release movie soundtracks released a 2 CD for the E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial soundtrack, which I own all releases available including the Hybrid stereo/multichannel SACD. The new La La Land 2 CD set was remixed at 192/24 from the original multitrack tapes and I was expecting a better and clearer sound than the one on the 2002 SACD/CD, but they used digital noise reduction so sound was a disappointment. Highs sound muted and the overall sound is dull and lifeless, but also cleaner with almost no tape hiss. Both the 1996 and 2002 releases have tape hiss but also sound beautiful with plenty of low level detail that got lost on the 2018 La La Land release. I wonder why they took the expense of transfering the original multitrack tapes to 192/24 and mixed at the same resolution to then screw it with DNR.
     
  3. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Noise reduction on audio or video? Two very different things.

    If it's audio, I agree when you have a 60-70-year-old optical soundtrack, too often engineers want to "throw the baby out with the bath" and knock out everything over 7kHz, which is not necessary. I think some careful and judicious NR is possible, but only to solve the problem of the track sounding like bacon frying. If they can knock off maybe 10dB of noise, that helps a lot. But if they try to get rid of all the noise, then it sounds like somebody threw a blanket over the speakers.

    There are lots and lots of modern methods to reduce optical noise and tape hiss and do it surgically, to the point where you'll barely notice it. I'd rather have that then have lots of noise, to the point where it's intrusive. The key is to have really experienced mastering people making the decisions, people with good ears and good judgement. (And access to very good picture and sound materials.)

    They told me at Warner Bros.' MPI division that they went through 9 different prints and negatives of Citizen Kane to assemble together the best possible restoration, both pictures and sound. It took a year and roughly a million dollars to do all that work -- and I think most of the movie came from a last-minute digital copy provided by the BFI in London. I think it wound up looking and sounding fantastic, and you look at it today and it's hard to believe it's an 80-year-old film.
     
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  4. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    That movie was mixed in 1982 with Dolby A on most of the tracks, so I'm shocked that anybody would try to do anything with it -- it was already clean enough as-is. But you never know when somebody new comes in and yells, "no! This is an important digital release! I don't want to hear any analog noise!" Bad decisions get made. One of my saddest (and truest) comments in the world of film & TV is, "nothing is worse than when a non-technical person is in a position of power." And this is particularly true with studio execs, record label execs, and producers.

    I would bet that the masters have at least a S/N ratio of maybe 65-70dB, and jesus, that should be enough for anybody. The hiss at that level is stupid-low. I don't need it to be 90dB or higher.
     
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  5. But I'm talking about John Williams soundtrack for E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial, not the audio track on the movie itself.
     
  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Say AUDIO on the first line, so we know what you're talking about on the Visual Arts Forum.

    I gave my comments earlier on what I think about excessive audio noise reduction, so you're preaching to the choir here.

    How did the mix sound on the Blu-ray disc and the 4K Blu-ray? I actually watched and listened to the latter a few months ago and thought it was exemplary.
     
  7. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

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    A moderator has updated the title of this thread to avoid confusion. And yes, I'm very aware that soundtrack albums are being subjected to noise reduction too, but frankly that's a well known issue that's already frowned upon.

    But the audio tracks on movies themselves being victim too is a topic that's seldom discussed and sometimes denied altogether. I've posted about it elsewhere on home video forums and most people are sceptical even when presented with evidence. A Blu-ray.com reviewer even went as far as to argue that the restored blu-ray track included in this streamable comparison clip I made actually sounds better to him.

    I've made like a hundred of these sorts of comparisons, all streamable in the same way.

    And Vidiot, while I agree that using NR overzealously is the greater issue, I disagree that it can be used in a moderate capacity with 'surgical precision' to remove hiss without perceptible loss. I don't think it's a leap to suggest that people on these forums would decry any amount of NR being used to 'restore' an album -- why should the standards for optical film audio be any different? If anything, the boundaries between signal versus noise are even fuzzier.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Speaking strictly as an engineer, I disagree with you. I think it's possible to use good taste and experience to avoid any damage. The first rule of any restoration engineer (like that of a physician) is "first, cause no harm."

    In the case of a fairly recent blockbuster film like E.T., the Dolby Surround print master is already Dolby A encoded, so I would tell the engineers, "avoid all unnecessary processing beyond using the modified X-curve for playback," which is a standard roll-off used to defeat the high-frequency boost for speakers behind the screen. That, plus remix the film for a TV reference level of 79dB, which I think works well for home video releases intended for small rooms (say, no more than 30' x 30'). The 85dB reference level for theatrical releases to me is too "dynamic" for home releases, and that's what makes quiet dialogue sections too low in volume, and then super-loud orchestral peaks and explosions too loud, causing people to manually turn the volume up and down at home. I think done well, this can be controlled in a way that doesn't hurt the mix.

    But NR shouldn't be necessary for a film this recent, particularly one that won Oscars for Best Sound and Best Sound Editing. At the very worst, I might consider some very mild de-noising of dialog & FX-tracks only, but then leave the music completely alone. And again, we're talking maybe 5-10dB of NR at most. I'd have to hear a before-and-after, and I could very well say, "ya know, the original mix sounds fine -- just let it go." I've done this before: when we did the remaster on Dances with Wolves, I just did more or less a straight-across delivery of the 6-track, with only very mild EQ and a little level-riding -- no limiting, no compression, and no NR, since it was already a Dolby SR film. That was clean as a whistle -- and again, it was a multiple-Oscar-winning film, so I was reluctant to do anything to it. And the DVD and Blu-ray got rave reviews, so I like to believe we did everything right.

    CD and SACD releases are handled by a different company, so I'm not sure if even Spielberg or Williams are involved with E.T., except to sign off on approving the contract and to sign the checks that come in. I think they assume the sound is pretty much gonna be the same, but both of them are at the age (73 and 87, respectively) where they're going to struggle to hear high frequencies as it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  9. I stated it was a 2 CD set, I don't think nobody in 2020 would think about Video-CD.
    Regarding the AUDIO TRACK on the E.T. UHD BD I think it much uses the mix for the 20th Anniversary theatrical rerelease,there are some sounds (you call this foley?) added like the ooomph when the alien space ships takes off at the beginning, but fortunately the original 2.0 matrix encoded audio track is included. I have played E.T. with both mixes and I like both, the remix sounds outstanding, and the original it's, well, the original,technically dated but sounds fine for its time. Remix+Original= everybody's happy.
     
  10. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    So there's no NR on the film mix? But there's NR on the music soundtrack?
     
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  11. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

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    I doubt any engineer would disagree with this ethos in theory, but I've yet to come across any instance of hiss reduction that hasn't resulted in some amount of perceptible loss - and I've compared literally 200 films (again, linked).

    I've haven't compared ET (I'd need to get hold of the LaserDisc), but in theory all of this sounds reasonable (albeit still a compromise that I fundamentally disagree with, as I would with any such 'restoration' to the high frequencies of any music committed to tape or shellac). Yet there are exceptions for even modern films like these -- see Raging Bull, which had a justifiably renowned sound mix but sounds objectively terrible via its 5.1 mix (which I reckon isn't discrete, but that's another issue entirely).

    The biggest offenders are indeed pre-Dolby films. You mention Citizen Kane: it's reasonable to be impressed by the work that went into sourcing the best extant elements for its soundtrack, but the end result is utterly disappointing. How many people have actually A/Bed and spectrally analysed the audio of a celebrated restoration like this to its earlier counterparts? Probably none. I did, and it's indisputable that the audio track currently on the Warner blu-ray has been around since at least 2002, when it appeared on DVD. In fact, I've yet to hear anything sound clearer than the analogue track on the old Image LaserDisc. Like ~every pre-1950 film currently distributed by Warner, Fox, Disney, or Universal the blu-ray begins rolling off around 6 kHz and sounds muffled.

    As for "rave reviews" not discerning audio problems... that's par for the course and what makes all of this so frustrating. Most blu-ray reviewers have absolutely no idea what they're writing about when it comes to audio -- certainly, the average poster on these forums would be more perceptive of these flaws. I'll repeat: a Blu-ray.com reviewer argued that this restoration is an improvement, even when shown a direct comparison clip.
     
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  12. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery picture member

    The worst I ever experienced was with an 80s Laserdisc of the Alastair Sim SCROOGE (A CHRISTMAS CAROL). I don't recall who the issuer was, but I remember being thrilled to find it after years of bad VHS releases.

    There was so much noise reduction on the soundtrack that in scenes where just the background score was supposedly playing, the track went silent, only to return when someone spoke. Some of that score was fairly quiet, but really, it SHOULD be heard.
     
  13. I think there's DNR applied to the 2018 La La Land Records 2 CD set that features the full movie soundtrack by John Williams remixed by Bruce Botnick, the original mix down engineer of this Williams soundtrack, from the analogue multitrack tapes. This has nothing to do on how this Williams soundtrack sounds on the movie, this remixed 2 CD set was released AFTER the release of the UHD BD of E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial.
    All previous releases of Williams' soundtrack for E.T. sound fine, the original 1982 album was tracked and mixed down digitally and all the music are concert arrangements, not as heard on the movie. Then came MCA 1996 remixed and expanded CD that features almost the full soundtrack and used the analogue mutitrack tapes, and so did the 2002 20th Anniversary CD/Hybrid SACD. These two releases have some tape hiss but also sound great with plenty of low level detail and also some tape hiss that I personally couldn't care less about. I prefer nice sound with low level detail intact to a clean DNR'ed mix that sounds lifeless and with most of its low level detail and high frequencies killed because the use of it.
     
  14. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    It may not be tape hiss: a big studio production like this could conceivably use 30-40 microphones in a big studio, and that many mics and preamps will produce a certain amount of self-noise. (I was at the score recording session at Warner Bros.* for Back to the Future 3, and I counted 36 mics there, many of which were actually used on the session, which had about a 100-piece orchestra.) So it may not be tape noise: it could be dozens of 90dB preamps that each bring down the overall S/N by maybe 1dB. Even the best classical sessions these days use spot mics and additional mics, so getting a very simple 2-mic setup or something like that is not going to happen at a major LA film studio.

    I have no explanation except that if I had been there, I would've argued against it. But as I've said two or three times, sometimes label execs and non-technical people get involved and order the engineers to do additional tweaks against their instincts. Bad decisions get made. I've said many times, "nothing is worse than when non-technical people are in a position of power." I also am a believer in "less is more," that if a knob goes to 11, go a lot less if you can... or at least no more than necessary.

    *and yes, they recorded at WB even though it was a Universal picture.
     
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  15. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Let's agree to disagree.
     
  16. The soundtrack for E.T. was recorded at MGM Scoring Stage despite being a Universal release. I guessed mic amps had also something to do with signal to noise ratio, and also so many analogue tracks mixed down to Stereo but I have never been a hiss/hiss-like noise hater, I've never been obssesed with clean sounding recordings as it happened to my generation, I was a kid and a teen on the early CD era.
    What surprises me about this release is that Botnick also remixed the 2012 La La Land 3 CD set for Star Trek The Motion Picture Goldsmith's soundtrack and he got it to sound outstanding, and also, La La Land Records is know for its outstanding sounding releases, I don't know what went South with this E.T. release but it's a soundtrack I know very well and to me this 2018 2 CD set doesn't sound right. Maybe Botnick didn't use DNR and the condition of the original multitrack tapes is to blame, but they seemed to be in good condition in 2002 for the 20th Anniversary release.
     
  17. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
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    Would you mind explaining why you disagree, instead? You yourself said, "too often engineers want to "throw the baby out with the bath" and knock out everything over 7kHz, which is not necessary" -- which I've indicated with spectral evidence is the case with Citizen Kane and at least a hundred other films of its time.

    And I'd just like to request generally--if it is at all within my liberties as OP to do so--that the discussion remain focused on the effects of noise reduction on the synchronised audio tracks for films and not score/soundtrack releases on CD (which have already been discussed aplenty and are probably better suited for the Music Corner subforum anyway!).
     
  18. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery picture member

    Well, that's what *I* thought it was about.
     
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  19. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

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    And I appreciate that you did! Some of the strongest NR culprits I've encountered use similarly extreme measures, which sound like noise gating to me. The first DVD of Frankenstein (1931) is another example.
     
  20. DiabloG

    DiabloG City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

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    Some of the old Tom and Jerry cartoons on the Spotlight Collection DVDs have really bad noise reduction. When I watched them as a kid, I always thought the audio sounded lifeless and sorta like it was recorded 'under water' so to speak, but I simply thought it was due to the cartoons being so old. After learning about NR on this forum, I finally figured out the reason why several of those episodes sounded so bad. The Golden Collection doesn't have this issue and the audio sounds much better. The US Gene Deitch and Chuck Jones collections also don't have any audio NR, but I think the older European versions did.
     
  21. Last week I watched Eureka's (UK) BD for Three Days Of The Condor, Arrow's Network and Studio Canal's (UK) The Conversation, I guess I had a 70's feel week.
    All of these releases as far as I know were recorded and mixed without Dolby A or any kind of noise reduction. The original audio tracks for these three movies were monophonic (Condor and The Coversation got a 5.1 remix that don't sound bad) and have a fair amount of tape hiss that doesn't bother me at all, but also preserve all the ambiance and low level detail of the audio track. That is the way to go.
    I don't understand the obssesion for cleanness o both Audio and video. If a movie has grain, let it stay or as Vidiot says "manage it" but in a clever way, the equipment is there and I'm sure there are more than enough good video engineers to do the job right. Same with audio, let tape hiss stay. If an audio track tape has plenty of hiss and there's not much frequency content over 12/14000 Hz,then you can filter some noise out without affecting the actual audio.
    Please,accept this and engrave it in your mind you midless bussiness men that manage movie and music industry, MUSIC ALBUMS AND MOTION PICTURES ARE A PRODUCT OF THEIR TIME, LET THEM STAY THAT WAY.
     
  22. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
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    The film sounds find to me. Show me a spectrograph of Citizen Kane, and I think you'll find information in there at least up to 10kHz. I've done a ton of optical-sound films over the years, and I know way, way too much about how they're done and how mastering works. I have low expectations on a film made 80 years ago, but I know they're capable of 10kHz. Beyond that... not so much. Even the mics and preamps of that period struggled to go that high.

    Take a listen to the classic Universal horror films released in the last couple of years on Blu-ray. I thought they did a terrific job: several critics pointed out that when Renfield goes up the "stone" steps to see Dracula, you can actually hear his shoes clunking on the plywood set -- something that was buried in optical hiss for the previous 60-70 years. Now, you could actually hear all this detail. There's a lot of ear-opening stuff like that in these old films, provided they can get to good source material, the playback systems are correctly aligned, and the mastering engineers use experience and good taste in mastering.

    You need to direct your comments to the people who actually release these films, and not whine to other fans. All you're doing is making noise. We can't do anything here. Me personally, I'm only responsible for picture -- the tracks are done by other people. Even in the case of picture, sometimes the client makes decisions beyond our control.

    The bigger problem is that the studios aren't remastering enough old films. To a lot of 30-something execs, a film from the 1980s (40 years old) is really old; a film from the 1960s or 1950s is ancient; and films from the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s are prehistoric. Convincing them to release more of their catalog is a nightmare of politics and bad decisions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  23. Moshrom

    Moshrom Forum Resident Thread Starter

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    I don't know how many times I have to link to the site where I've aggregated spectrographs and waveforms for almost 200 films, but here it is again: Citizen Kane. Besides a few isolated peaks extending to 10 kHz and above (and those have still been attenuated with the indiscriminate >6 kHz roll-off), there's much less high-frequency information on the blu-rays and DVD (which are the same mastering!) than on the Image LD.

    Oh, I've listened to quite a few of them and I'm not impressed. I have Frankenstein in my queue and it's immediately obvious how much clearer the LD is compared to the blu-ray. As for people noticing sounds previously obscured... colour me sceptical. Unless lower-gen elements were unearthed (which does occasionally happen, but less frequently than one would hope) attenuating noise has in my experience also attenuated those sounds. People (especially reviewers) say all sorts of things when given a shiny new disc with a 'painstakingly restored' transfer of a film, and they almost always make those conclusions without A/Bing. I'm reminded that when a classic album is remastered, people preemptively declare they can now hear things that were hidden before... and yet if one were to return to the old CDs from the '80s, those things are there too - clear as day.
     
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