non-fill distortion: it's driving me crazy!

Non fill is pretty common. The AT micro line certainly picks it up more. Vintage vinyl had it occasionally but it does appear to affect at least 10% of new vinyl even if it is only on a few revs throughout a disc. Have had the problem from practically every plant with exception of QRP so far. Rainbo are probably the other way round -90% non-fill

 

It isn't something you have to listen for intently at all--it is a very loud "tearing" sound that you can't miss. I've only heard it on two or three albums out of a few hundred, so you may just have lucked out.

 

Just a thought from someone who buys new vinyl extremely rarely, do these labels offer lighter-weight (cheaper) alternatives? When it was time for me to purchase the Classic "Hot Rats" album (Frank Zappa), I opted for the cheaper, 150 g version and got a wonderful pressing! Plus this thing is most likely closer in thickness to what I usually spin, so no VTA adjustment...

 

Funny thing too, I recently bought three new [2012] double LP bootlegs on coloured wax and the two that I have played so far are dead quiet. Go figure.

 

I had never come across this before I bought John Prine's "Fair and Square". An excellent (and otherwise great sounding album) ruined by some very serious bouts of non-fill.
I have come across it a few times since.
I don't recall encountering it on any of my old 70's albums.

 

I wish I knew exactly what non-fill meant. A ripping sound in one channel? Is this usually at the beginning, in the middle, or at the end of a side? Presumably increasing tracking force will not help. It would be great to hear an audio clip of this. I wonder if it's something I've encountered but just didn't know the term for it.

 

Should should needle drop this for those who've never heard it.

 

I posted one in the Beatles vinyl thread: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/beatles-remasters-on-vinyl-part-9.301900/page-39#post-8270520

And the direct SoundCloud link is here: http://snd.sc/10I8DyI

 

Ive never heard of non fill distortion
Is it some kind of pressing stress ?

 

I for one would be happy to see this 180 gram thing go the way of the dodo. It nearly doubles the manufacturing costs per unit and introduces the possibility of major QC issues. It`s a marketing gimmick. Does it really sound better than 150 or 160 gram? Not really. All of my incredible sounding older albums are on regular weight vinyl. They sound incredible because they were properly mastered

It should be an option for people who really want it, but it bugs me that it has taken over as a "must." People complain about new vinyl prices, and this is a big part of the problem.

 

180g probably only increases overall cost of production and marketing a little. There is probably an increased profit margin though. Where I have been able to compare 180/200 grm with the same mastering on lighter weight vinyl there is certainly a small improvement in SQ. I have had vinyl fill type noise on both heavy weight and 'standard' weight vinyl for what it's worth. Reducing weight is not a panacea for improved pressing and mastering quality.

 

I don't think 20 grams of vinyl is breaking the bank when it comes to vinyl, as far as costs go.
They just need to set the presses at the correct times and temps.
This is a production issue, less time in the press, equals more LP's per shift.

 

It's more often at the beginning of a side. If you think of it, the vinyl donut gets pressed from the inside out and that makes it a bit more difficult the fill the outer stamper grooves evenly when the pressing parameters aren't optimal.

 

I`ve priced out vinyl. It`s substantially more per unit. You wouldn`t think so, but it is.

 

I think you would find it, although probably not as often as it arises now. I have an old Lonnie Mack LP 'Glad I'm in the Band' on U.S. Elektra from 1969 which has quite extensive non-fill. Too bad, because the sound is superb. I got a later issue, also U.S., which doesn't have non-fill but sounds nowhere as good. It's a defect that I cannot tolerate at all on vinyl LPs.

 

Like X100

 

For my sins (I guess), my Speakers Corner copy of Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' has the problem on one track. When I bought it (six or more years ago I imagine) I heard the noise but I thought it would be solved with cleaning and the possibility of non-fill on a Pallas pressing just didn't occur to me. Other than that one, I can't recall finding non-fill on any other European audiophile reissue. RTI is a culprit on the cheaper line of LPs they press (Blind Pig for instance) but I think MoFi demands high quality product and keeps RTI on its toes in that regard.

Funny thing, I had to return my first copy of the U.S. Rhino RTI pressed 'Ladies of the Canyon' due to noise (don't think it was non-fill though) but my replacement copy was fine. The QC for Rhino product at RTI is not as good as MoFi's.

 

I had the exact same experience with this 2LP. There is non-fill throughout the four sides on my sample. It certainly is the worst that I have come across ever. A great LP ruined, mine is only fit for the dumpster as I will never attempt to play it. I don't know who in the U.S. pressed this but at the time I thought it was RTI but I could be wrong. This put me off ordering vinyl from the States and now I get my vinyl from Germany mostly as returns are more easily handled.

 

OK, I'm going to be contrarian and call this sample as a different fault. Not non-fill. The sound here is of the groove wall (inner groove wall, left channel) being pushed just a little by the loud right channel of the next revolution (specifically, the drum/bass entering). This is usually a metalwork fault (plating too fast) not a pressing fault. It can also be damaged scuffed stampers, or bad cutting that wasn't fixed at the mother stage. Yes, they do that). I'm told this is called 'cutter pre-echo rasp', as it's definitely related to pre-echo (same thing but you just hear the music to come, not the rasp) It's usually the result of the grooves being cut too close together (modern computer controlled cutting of any type should prevent this entirely)

Non-fill is MUCH worse than that. The whole wall of the groove is rough, resulting in pretty much everything on the right channel being obliterated. It's also usually longer (1/4 to several revolutions)

Non-fill is where the vinyl fails to flow outwards into the stamper, or is not cooled sufficiently prior to the press opening. It's all down to production parameters - heat, pressure, vinyl mix). The result is a bad mold of the outer (right) channel wall at some point on the record.

 

Yes, this sounds exactly like my copy which I bought from "Acoustic Sounds". I complained to them at the time, and they told me to keep the album and refunded me. I think it was by then a known problem with that album!

 

I recall reading that there are two different issues, and this "tearing" sound may be a different problem, as you stated. I forget the wording now but it came up on the Beatles vinyl thread, at one point. This sound I posted did have the "string of pearls", as did other Beatles LP's I had to deal with. I think even Michael Fremer calls it non-fill but perhaps we're all using the wrong terminology.

If non-fill is much longer and audio that's completely gone, I don't think I've ever heard that on an LP (old or new). But this quick tearing sound I've heard on more than a few LP's, usually 180g titles.

 

I'm going by the sound here. I'm familiar with that effect. It also varies (as does pre-echo) with setup and stylus shape. Pre-echo is worse where the grooves are closest, i.e. at the top. If azimuth is off, you'll get more. If your stylus is a different shape, it'll change. I replaced a cartridge once and put on a disc that always had pre-echo, and it was gone!. Took me a while to work that out.

I think the 'pearls' notation is showing that the land between the grooves is missing-i.e. the grooves meet, something that's bad, and so there's not a flat space but a sort of bouncy mountain ridge. Usually. Some cutting engineers get away with it (Porky, for example, overloaded pretty much everything. Only occasionally did that cause audible problems). Usually you can see where special care is taken to prevent this.

Stan Ricker in particular went to great lengths to set out the groove spacing to prevent any interaction groove to groove, which is why things like the Telarc 1812 work.