Non Keith Moon drummer on Who By Numbers?

"Not to be taken away." Makes me sad when I see it...

 

I think it was Peter James Bond.

I think we would've of heard this out of Pete's mouth at some point if it were true.

 

AFAIK, Astley never did any of the remixing. Andy Macpherson did.

That said, my feeling is the main effort was "to make them good" rather than to necessarily replicate the originals to the letter. I don't think it was a matter of "we want this different", but it wasn't a matter of "we have to duplicate the original" either.

FWIW, I believe the I'm The Face remix fairly closely matches the version on the Quadrophenia soundtrack (assuming it's actually a remix).

 

Certainly both of them were involved in the remixing. The only CD I have with me at work,Who Are You lists both of them as remix producers. Bob Ludwig did the remastering on this one. But how does leaving off a guitar track on New Song make it "sound good'? Or, somehow make it better than the original version? And if your theory is correct why aren't there more of these remix anomolies? I think they are mostly errors to be honest. Either using the wrong masters...or forgetting to fade up guitar tracks or other overdubs.

I'm The Face, on the Boxset and on the revamped Odds and Sods is remixed, it says so in the liner notes. It's in stereo and the song is faded out, instead of coming to the original ending....Keith smashing his cymbals which for all the world sound like trash lids . I don't have the Quadrophenia Soundtrack but that came out well after both of these sets so that has nothing to do with the reasons it is remixed. I don't have a problem with including the remix on the Boxset...perfect place for alternate mixes and such...but there's no reason to include that same mix on Odds and Sods causing the original mono mix to no longer be available on CD. Ron

PS...A pet peeve too. There's nothing in the liner notes to Who Are You indicating that some songs are remixed and thus differ from the original versions.

 

"Had Enough" on Who Are You is the worst with the anomolies. The orchestra tracks are completely different in it!!! It literally changes the melody in that part of the song. Guitar And Pen doesn't completely end either. The last few notes that were quiet in the original mix, but still there, are chopped off on the remix. Who Sell Out bothers me too because of the new "Rael." They re-edited it, and the original is fine the way it is! It seems like they didn't study the original mixes enough to figure out what instruments went where. I have a feeling Townshend doesn't like the remixes because he has slowly been putting the deluxe versions out which use the original mixes again (Tommy, Who's Next). I was lucky to find the first CD edition of Who Are You, and I promptly got rid of the remixed version.

 

I have to disagree with you regarding Rael. The edit on the original might be the worst edit I've ever heard.

 

It doesn't matter what was listed - Astley didn't do the actual remixing, Macpherson did. Astley's involvement in a lot of this stuff isn't clear. For example, apparently the mixes Andy prepared for Tommy didn't have the digital clicks present on the final CD. Yet the digital tape given to Bob Ludwig apparently *did* have the clicks. What Jon was doing is anyone's guess.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. There are all kinds of differences through the catalog. Tommy has a bunch. Quad has a bunch.

Again, my feeling is their approach was "ok, this sounds good" rather than "we must duplicate every nuance of the original mixes". Hence the differences.

A few things:

1) The original O&S used a stereo mix (that did come to a full ending), not a mono mix.
2) The "remixed" notations on the box set are meaningless. The AQO tracks all say "remixed" yet they aren't (other than the live sections of the title track). The Tommy tracks say they are remixed - same deal. Same with the Who's Next tracks, for that matter.
3) The Quad soundtrack was released in 1979. A new mix of I'm The Face was done for that album. The mix there either is, or is very close to the one used on the box set and O&S reissue. Same funky stereo separation, same reverb, same fade. Unfortunately I don't have the original Polydor CD of that (just an LP), so I can't compare them digitally (a lot of the stuff on the box set was digitally lifted from earlier CDs or CD masters).

The credits say (this time correctly) that it was remixed, just as most of the Who reissues were.

 

Have to agree with Chris on this one - "authentic" or not, the original edit was terrible. The rest of the original mixes are fine, but that edit basically ruins them for me. Not only is it just dumb, it's a BAD edit - the song doesn't flow at all.

 

I stand by what I said about Rael. It doesn't flow the same way it used to..I definitely prefer my first CD pressing of The Who Sell Out. Same goes for Quadrophenia. The remix of that one is just hideous to me.

 

Luke where do you get your information? Every source I've read, including the liner notes, say Astley was involved in the remixing of Who Are You. What's your source that only Andy was. I know there's a long list of differences...that was MY point. I can't imagine it was done simply because it sounded good...just a poor reason. It may be true, I just don't buy it.

I don't have the original CD of Odds and Sods any longer. I thought the original vinyl version of I'm The Face was a mono mix with the cold ending. It's possible i'm confusing the stereo/mono issue with Zoot Suit however. My point is the available mix of ITF is no longer the original version. Again, every source I've read lists ITF as being remixed for the Box Set, then used on the revised Odds and Sods. It's not meaningless that it is so listed...why do you think it's not remixed? When I get home I'll include my source details. Ron

 

What don't you like about the Quad remix?

 

Guys,we have to remember: "out of Pete's mouth" & "true" are a major contridiction

 

Where do I get my information? Places like ICE Magazine, 10+ years of Who mailing lists (Odds & Sods most recently; whatever existed prior to that) and people who have actually talked to the principals (heck, I even spoke with Astley once, but not about this).

I'd also point out that the wording of the credits changed from release to release. Some say "Remixed & Remastered By" (despite not being mastered by either Jon or Andy), while Who Are You Says "Reissue Produced & Remixed By". Yes, Jon did produce it, and Andy did remix it, but not vice versa. And looking at Odds & Sods, it explicitly states:

Reissue Produced by Jon Astley
Remixed by Andy Macperson at Revolution Studios
CD Mastering by Jon Astley

I still don't understand what you are trying to argue. The original mixes were obviously not copied in minute detail - that's clear. As far as I can tell, that leaves three options:

1) They were aware of the differences and wanted the remixes to be different.
2) They may or may not have been aware of the differences, but didn't really care because they wanted to take a fresh approach.
3) They were unaware of the differences and screwed up.

My money is on #2.

I already told you why I thought it may not have been remixed - because it sounds just like the Quad soundtrack version. Of course, they could have remixed it with the soundtrack version as a guide - I'm not sure. That said, it seems quite odd that a new remix would feature a fade just like a previous mix when the cold ending is on the multi (and other stereo mix).

And I've already gone over the "remixed" issue on the box set. Those credits ARE meaningless. Happy Jack, Boris, So Sad About Us, AQO, Pictures of Lily and Magic Bus ALL say "Remixed" and other than the live portions of AQO, none are - in fact, they are all mono! It's a *fact* that Astley was clueless about the multis for AQO (and the stereo mix for that matter!) at the time of the box set and AQO reissue.

 

I don't hate the remix, but I'm not in love with it either. Some things are better than the original mix, but some things are worse, IMO. These days I honestly listen to the original mix more...

 

In other words, we more or less, gather our information from the same sources. Yet we differ on the remixing issues, that's cool. You say your money is on #2...but don't say why. I think it's more likely to be #3. Why? Well, look at some of the obvious errors Astley/Macpherson have made. Using one channel of Time Is Passing, claiming they used the rare House That Track Built version of Young Man Blues...when it's not even the same take as the one on that LP. Under My Thumb missing the damned guitar solo!!!

To my ears these are very careless errors, nothing to do with "taking a fresh approach". But something akin to MOFI using the "wrong" vocal for Eyesight To the Blind...that was a mistake, not an attempt at making the song better. If Tommy was never remastered or remixed again, the original and correct version would no longer be available...thankfully this didn't happen.

From the Who.net website...In 1991 it (I'm The Face) was again reissued as a 45 and CD single with a boxset of Fontana singles. Track 1 on the 1998 Odds & Sods remaster where it has a different mix and is faded out before the hard end on the original LP at 2'27. No mention of replicating the mix on the Quadrophenia Soundtrack...though this is possible, I don't have a copy on hand to compare. It's just as likely that Astley used the wrong damn mix or master to begin with.

Luke I'm not arguing about minute mixing issues (i.e. longer/shorter fades, EQ changes, fixing tiny mistakes)...I'm talking about missing guitar overdubs, using different vocals, different overdubs, and most importantly, not mentioning anywhere in the liner notes that some songs are different than the original mixes. These aren't minor transgressions in my opinion.

I never brought up the Box Set except to say that's the place where alternate mixes belong. I don't recall or care if Astley is listed in the credits as remix producer or not. I do think original canon CD releases should contain the original mixes...Alternate mixes and the like, should only be released as bonus tracks, or on multi-box sets. I also made it clear I only had the Who Are You CD with me and THAT'S the CD which actually credits both Astley and Macpherson as remix producers. I can't find a single article saying this was listed in error.

One final thought. You mention that the songs from A Quick One arent remixes because they are in mono? Surely a mono master...or the session tapes used to create that master can be remixed. Isn't this what has happened to the mono Pet Sounds repeatedly? There's also many early Beatles tracks with two distinct mono mixes. All I know is that the mono tracks from AQO used on the boxset sound different to me. Ron

 

And you might not from an official source. Doesn't mean it was necessarily accurate. It's also ambiguous anyway - does "Produced and Remixed By" mean they both produced and remixed, or that Jon produced and Andy remixed?

Go ask Fang what remixing Jon has done...

Well, first off, the AQO tracks on the box sound just like all the other mono versions I've heard. Yes, they sound different from the *stereo* mixes (and stereo remixes), but that's not what we're comparing to...

I'm not aware of multiple mono mixes of Pet Sounds, but I can't say I'm an expert on that album. I only know of the original mono mix and the recent stereo and 5.1 remixes.

Can a mono master be "remixed"? No. Can the multi be remixed *to* mono? Sure, but 1) it doesn't make any sense that it wouldn't have been mixed to stereo, and 2) it's well known Astley didn't have access to the multis (and then only some of them) till several years later (anyone remember the exact date the remixed AQO was finally issued?). He specifically told ICE at the time of the AQO reissue that he didn't have the multis to remix.

Again, though, the credits are wrong for more than just AQO. Some of the Who's Next tracks fade up, *exactly* like they do on the original Polydor CD. Yet they all claim to be "remixed".

 

I don't have the bootleg, But have heard a live version of it with keith and can see why it was abandoned as a live number.
The studio version had a lot of percussion overdubs, And it would have been like playing certain songs from Quadrophenia which they gave up trying to play live during the 70's.

From what i could make out of the live slip kid recording though, The drums were played nothing like the studio version.

 

They were.

 

Most of the drums on Who By Numbers were dubbed on after the fact-- They said so in interviews at the time (no link. but as a fan at the time I read all the interviews). At the time they said they were dubbed on by Keith though, but who knows?

It seemed bizarre enough at the time that after Quadrophenia and the Tommy soundtrack, the Who made an album with lots of acoustic guitars and no synths.

 

I remember reading a few years ago about Nigel Olsen doing some drum work on the Who By Numbers album, But could not fathom what it is he would have contributed to other than the percussion overdubs maby on Slip Kid.

Every drum track on that album sounds to me like total Moonie madness!
And during the 75/76 tour, Keith never played better...The Whole band did.

 

http://www.thewho.net/linernotes/ByNumbers.htm

 

You are confusing By Numbers with Who Are You. The drums for By Numbers were recorded live with the band. The drums for Who Are You were overdubbed onto finished tracks because Moon's drumming had deteriorated to the point he initially couldn't play at all, and was inconsistent and unreliable throughout the sessions.

 

A couple more points about the Nigel Olssen story that prompted this thread:
1. According to the dates on Brian Cady's liner notes site, none of the tracks for the By Numbers album were recorded on Saturday or Sunday, so the "quick three-day weekend" claim is inaccurate.
2. The track that sounds the least like Keith, "Slip Kid" was recorded on the final day of sessions, while the first track recorded ("They are All in Love") is most definitely Keith. No one else would drum like that on a ballad, or be allowed to. So the claim that Nigel was used on some tracks because Keith was stranded in the US doesn't ring true, since the most likely candidate to be someone other than Moon was the last song recorded.

 

Believe it or not, they actually used a backing tape for Slip Kid when they played it live in the early part of the '76 tour, having piano and percussion on the tape, which made the song more complicated to perform live and is probably why it was dropped soon into the US tour.

 

Makes sense.
Please keep in mind, The live version from i believe 1975 That i heard was terrible quality sound wise..And i was lucky enough to hear a bit of vocals, Guitar and drum kit.
Pre recorded percussion would have to be used for that song live..Unless they had extra musicians on stage.