Obscure & Neglected Female Singers Of Jazz & Standards (1930s to 1960s)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ridin'High, Sep 4, 2016.

  1. misterjones

    misterjones Forum Resident

    New York City
    Thanks for the further explanation. I'll look at your notes more closely later. My takeaway for now, however, is that I should get Listen to His Legacy and see if I feel like I need more in light of what the additional volumes offer.
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  2. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident


    I need to add a few words related to the Felicia Sanders CD.
    When it was time to choose what to buy, I looked through all the CD releases and bought only one by Sepia Records with 24-bit remaster (2LP on one CD) for $8 at amazon):

    Felicia Sanders I Wish You Love / That Creative Feeling +2 Sepia 2011 5055122111757

    (from the review)
    "5* Vastly Underrated 1950s Vocalist
    Anyone who recalls her collaboration with the Percy Faith orchestra on the 1953 # 1 smash hit (10 weeks at the top spot), The Song From Moulin Rouge (Where Is Your Heart?) on Columbia 39944, or her # 29 Top 100 in June 1955 with Blue Star (The "Medic" Theme) from the hit TV series starring Richard Boone, knows what a great voice Felicia Sanders had. Everyone else can learn for themselves from this beautiful compilation from the folks at Sepia Records based (where else?) in the U.K.
    Pulling together the contents of two of her albums - I Wish You Love (Time Records S/2110 52110 - tracks 1 to 5 and 7 to 11) from 1960, and That Certain Feeling (Decca Records DL 76762 - tracks 13 to 24) from 1957/58, this offers excellent sound reproduction and informative liner notes in presenting 24 tracks (tracks 6 and 12 were not part of either album) that demonstrates her easy way with both pop ballads and jazz.
    ... What we need now is for someone to pull together her singles material which would, hopefully, include her 1959 recorded rendition of Fly Me To The Moon, which came out on Decca 30937.
    I have often wondered where her career may have taken her had she not sadly left us at age 53 on February 7, 1975 after a battle with cancer
    . "(October 24, 2011)



    Felicia Sanders Tribute
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  3. Ridin'High

    Ridin'High Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This Miss Carr has gotten a lot of mileage out of us! Blackie's post (pasted above, at the start) was the very first about her; it goes all the way back to the first page of this thread.

    As already mentioned on a previous post, I love the front covers of her two albums:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Here is the Max Bennett LP in which she guests:


    And here is one of her two vocals on the album:

    The side with Charles Mingus:


    And one side of which Helen's fans are apparently unaware. (I just discovered it while doing a bit of digging).


    Following in Jbeck57143's footsteps, maybe we should put together a chronological list of the few bio-discographical details that we know about her? ... I'll give it a try, and post the results later tonight, or tomorrow.
  4. Airhead

    Airhead Member

    London, UK
    Just discovered Joy Marshall through an acetate of a B.B.C. performance featuring Gordon Beck and John McLoughlin. She passed away the same year as the recording 1968. Hopefully the tapes of the performance will be of sufficient quality to make a release, it's a work in progress. Great voice but her current discography is not that extensive or highly regarded.
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  5. misterjones

    misterjones Forum Resident

    New York City
    I have this recording on 78, which I bought years ago at an antique barn only because it included the Big Three Trio. The female vocalist, Rosetta Howard, has not been mentioned yet, so I thought I would. She always sounded a bit like she was recorded at 45 RPM and played back at 33-1/3. I have a CD of her singing with the Harlem Hamfats, which I did buy because of her. The Hamfats were an interesting and somewhat obscure group from the late 1930s. I believe the members of the group changed more frequently than the Velvet Underground.

  6. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    Wow--thats cool! I don't know if that's on any CDs (I haven't found any yet), but I just bought a copy of the 78 on Ebay.

    That's a total of 26 songs counting the video clip.

    "Say It Isn't So" with Charles Mingus is on the CD "Charles 'Baron' Mingus – West Coast 1945-49" (from Uptown Jazz) and also "Charles Mingus the Complete 1945-1949 West Coast Recordings" (from The Jazz Factory)--but that one omits track 23
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  7. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    Someone should try to contact her husband Donn Trenner and see if he's willing to be interviewed about their time together. Maybe he even has some additional recordings of hers. Maybe we can even find out exactly how she died. He did write a memoir: Leave It to Me…My Life in Music.

    Here's his website:
    Donn Trenner.com

    The article on Wikipedia about him at: Donn Trenner - Wikipedia
    doesn't mention Helen at all, except for this photo:
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  8. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    According to The Chris Connor Bio-Discography:Chronological List Of Recordings, by Iván Santiago Mercado at:
    The Chris Connor Bio-Discography

    Bethlehem may have mistakenly released two EPs with catalogue number BEP-114: one by Chris Connor and another one by Helen Carr.
    In his entry for Chris {Part 1}; (Cat. Num.: BEP-114; Rel. Year: 1955) He says "Bethlehem seems to have mistakenly released two EPs with catalogue number BEP-114: this one by Chris Connor and another one by Helen Carr, also a vocalist under Bethlehem contract in the mid-1950s. I hasten to add that my points on this subject matter should be deemed tentative, because I have not seen physical copies of either EP. My source for the claim about Carr is the back cover of another issue (BEP-126), in which a partial listing of Bethlehem's EP catalogue has been printed. In that listing, EP #114 is identified as Helen Carr's, not Chris Connor's. As for the reason why I claim that there is also a Connor EP numbered BEP-114, I have seen online photos and also have reliable data about it.

    The release date that I am offering for Chris (BEP-114) is tentative, too. This EP could have come out in either 1954 or 1955..."

    Here is the back of BEP-114 by Chris Connor:


    And here is the back of BEP-126 "This is Chris", which in the list of Bethlehem EPs at the bottom, lists BEP-114 by Helen Carr:

  9. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    I love Blues a lot, blues singers of course, especially blues women, including Rosetta Howard. I do have a nice CD collection of the O&N (Obscure and Neglected) blues ladies. Unfortunately, they are not belong here, unless they did parallel jazz numbers or/and pop standards.

    I often jump back to the Post #1 to check our List of 33 major singers, considered to be non-O&N, to find out who I actually can talk about. We can talk about anybody, but in the contest of the topic.

    Guys, we have to be faithful to the name of the thread. Otherwise, it would be not a thread, but a thread-crap.

    Nevertheless, Rosetta Howard is very good at what she was doing.
    And she was doing... the BLUES:

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  10. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but Joy Marshall is strictly Soul and R&B singer... Thus. she cannot sneak into the thread List. Unless, there is one more Joy Marshall, jazz singer.
  11. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    Mary Mayo

    "What Is There to Say?"
    (The song by Mary Mayo)

    "Mary Mayo was the co-creator of one of the most unique and compelling records to emerge from the space age era, 1963's Moon Gas -- a collaboration with keyboardist/arranger Dick Hyman and guitarist Vinnie Bell, the album is highlighted by Mayo's ethereal and enchanting wordless vocals, a performance suggesting that of a human Theremin in both its alien approach and its otherworldly beauty. According to the spaceagepop.com website, Mayo was born July 20, 1924, in Statesville, NC, making her professional debut on Charlotte station WWBT soon after World War II. She was soon hired by saxophonist Tex Beneke, then leading the postwar version of the Glenn Miller Orchestra -- while on tour with the group, Mayo met bassist and arranger Al Ham, who later became her husband. The couple settled in New York City, and while Ham worked as a producer for Columbia Records, Mayo raised their daughter Lorri while also contributing uncredited vocals to her husband's studio sessions. At various points during the 1950s she also fronted a vocal jazz group called the Manhattanaires alongside a pre-Nutty Squirrels Don Elliott and recorded a handful of solo singles for Columbia.

    Dubbed "a glimpse at the possible sounds of the 22nd century" in the liner notes, Moon Gas was by far Mayo's notable effort and remains much-prized by collectors of exotica and early electronic recordings. The Metromedia label subsequently released two full-length Hillside Singers LPs, including a Christmas recording, both featuring Mayo. In 1986 the label also issued Time Remembered, a collection of songs she cut for the NPR radio series American Popular Song years earlier. Unfortunately, Mayo did not live to see the album's release -- she died of cancer in December of 1985."

    Her CD 'Dancing in a Dark' (the collection of songs from 40's) by Sounds of Yesteryear is better choice than her latter effort 'Time Remembered'.


    (from the review)
    "Mary Mayo had an amazing voice, a range of four octaves, she could sing baritone, tenor, alto soprano and high violin and she can be heard using these qualities to full effect on the tracks "Just A Wearyin' For You" and "Dancing In The Dark". Born to parents who were both opera singers it is no wonder she became a singer herself. She was to go on to a long and successful recording and television career. She appeared on the Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, Jackie Gleason and Jack Paar shows also Alec Wilders radio show American Popular Song. This is a rare opportunity to hear this wonderful singer with the fabulous voice."

    Following songs illustrate Mary Mayo phenomena:

    Just a Weryin' for You

    Mah Lindy Lou
    Mah Lindy Lou

    Time Remembered
    Time Remembered

    Dancing In The Dark
    ♫Mary Mayo♫ sings...Fred and Cyd Dance In The Dark

    Come to Baby, Do (she is changing voice again)
    ♫Mary Mayo♫...Come To Baby, Do

    Kitty Kallen could do this (Post #860), but she chose to use her own style and voice, remaining in the "Sweet and Cute" category, only slightly changing her timbre. Mary Mayo, however, went much further, she took a page from Kitty Kallen herself and
    it only..."It Only Takes A Minute" for her...
    ♫Mary Mayo♫...It Only Takes A Minute

    My favorite and the best version of the standard
    Why Can't You Behave? (maybe this is her real voice...?)

    Or may this is the one...
    The Love I Long for

    Or this...
    Autumn in New York

    definitely not this...
    April in Paris

    I really don't know what her natural voice sounds like...
    "What Is There to Say?", guys.
    What Is There to Say?

    What's the Reason? (I don't see any reason to do not love her, regardless of anything)
    Mary Mayo...What's The Reason


    By the way, here is how Dick Hyman used her ethereal vocal in his innovative 1963 album Moon Gas:
    They Can't Take That Away From Me

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  12. Airhead

    Airhead Member

    London, UK
    The playlist on this acetate is :-

    Dr. Feelgood
    The Telephone Song
    Come Back To Me
    When Sunny Gets Blue
    Peel Me A Grape
    I Think I'm Going Out Of My Head
    He Loves Me
    The Gentle Rain

    The band are the Gordon Beck Quartet, known for their jazz renditions of pop standards. I apologise if she doesn't belong in this thread, I'll get my coat. :)

    p.s. her only released album is "Who Says They Don't Write Good Songs Any More"
  13. misterjones

    misterjones Forum Resident

    New York City
    There certainly could have been a nicer way to communicate your view that my post strayed from the topic. Your harsh tone - especially your reference to my post as "thread crap", a phrase I feel should be reserved for outlandish and disruptive posts - has had the effect of souring me to this thread, which I no longer will follow.
  14. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    I did not mean it.
    Really sorry about that.

    misterjones, please except my apology.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  15. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Rules are made to be broken, my mother taught me (really). She is in her 90's now, and I am her 24/7 nurse. She likes all the singers, and had a large collection.
    toilet_doctor likes this.
  16. vanhooserd

    vanhooserd Forum Resident

    Maybe there will eventually be two versions of every thread, "narrow" & "wide", "tight" & "loose", or something like that.
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  17. vanhooserd

    vanhooserd Forum Resident

    This recent 25-cent find, a reissue from 1975, used to belong to a gentleman who lived in Selma, AL. Mostly well-known singers except for Sallie Blair & Jerri Winters. The Mingus track doesn't feature a singer but does have a (male) narration, which may be the reason it's on this volume.
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  18. Ridin'High

    Ridin'High Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Sorry to hear that, Mr. Jones. I do understand the feeling, and I sympathize, too ... Seeing how Toilet Doctor has promptly and thoughtfully apologized, I hope that you will decide to stay. In any case, know that you are welcome to read and post whenever you are ready to do so again.

    This is not an uncommon situation in online forums, of course. I bet that many of us, at some point or another, have written something that has made somebody else feel uncomfortable (I know I have!), maybe without our full realization that such would be the effect. We have to bear in mind that our backgrounds are not necessarily the same; as a result, each of us may have a different understanding of what is or isn't "proper." Besides, for at least some of us, English is not our native language, nor is American culture our main heritage, all of which could contribute to a difference in approach or understanding, too.

    Thank you, Toilet Doctor, for saying that, and very nice of you to remember. I will probably post an updated Index List before this month (July) is over.

    As for adding post numbers, I have considered it, and the idea appeals to me. Maybe I will do so ... someday in the foreseeable future. Not right now, though. For the time being, I feel that it is too much work; my "forum time" is better spent discussing the singers themselves. Meanwhile, if there are any folks here in search of comments about a particular singer, luckily there is an easy option: the forum's search engine. It's easy and, when it comes to looking up rare singers, pretty effective.

    She is a new name to me, and I was just checking her out in YouTube. It's true that, first and foremost, she sang soul music. And her general approach does tend to fall within the r&b category.

    But, it is true as well that she performed jazz standards ... and she did so with respect and care. Over half of the songs in the acetate mentioned by Airhead qualify as bona fide standards (from "Peel Me a Grape" and "Come Bak to Me" to "When Sunny Gets Blue" and "The Gentle Rain"). There were no throwaway performances in the YouTube stuff that I sampled, either. Check her out here, starting around 5:00:

    Solid singing, albeit not much in the way of nuance ... In person, her vocal sounds reminds me of Gloria Lynne. (Not as much on the recordings.)

    Isn't this a fine version of "A Taste of Honey?" JOY MARSHALL a taste of honey

    Her approach to "The More I See You" is, on the other hand, hard for me to take. I don't hate it, but neither would I want to hear it again. (Actually, the long "la la la" segment that starts around 1:30 is making me feel like I want to slap those backup singers!) The More I See You ~Joy Marshall

    Ha! I think we will all have to survive inside just this one. :angel:

    On the matter of "rules," I think every place needs a balance between opposite ends. Toilet Doctor is more of a purist, and it's good to have a purist perspective around.

    Rule breaking is not necessarily a bad thing, either, if it happens only now and then. It can bring fresh perspectives, or add to one's understanding. (Great to hear about your mom's forward thinking, Tribute, not to say anything of your dedication.)

    My own general position, going back to the time that this thread started running: I felt that it was important to stick to the rules at the beginning, when the thread was taking shape and running the risk of going in too many directions. Now that it is old and well-established, I think that we can stray a bit from time to time. After all, there are not many other threads where vintage female singers -- or topics tangentially connected to them -- are receiving attention. (Besides, I will still keep on excluding any non-jazz/pop singers from future updates of the index lists ... So, no harm in discussing any "presumed exclusions" right here.)

    Gee, this reply has turned out to be a much longer post than planned. Let me now get back to where I was yesterday (Helen Carr). Everybody else: keep on bringing new singers, and discussing them!
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  19. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    Guys, we have to be faithful to the name of the thread. Otherwise, it would be not a thread, but a thread-crap

    Wait a minute, Ridin'High, please let me first to make everything strait:

    I'm not a purist in my life and sometimes I go off topic in other threads. Believe me or not, but once I even was removed from the thread for... speaking off topic.
    However, this thread is different. It's a Reference thread and Discovery thread. People can find here a lot of treasure, they never knew about.
    I want us to keep it as clean as possible. And that's why:
    When newcomers bump on a post, for instance, about male artist with nice pictures and such, posted by Thread-Starter himself, they're taking it not as a stray post, but as a regular post, in other words, as a rule.
    And they could do the same thing - why not?
    When I imagined in my mind that all people start to do the stray posts about their favorite artists, as a regular posts, I said:
    "Guys, we have to be faithful to the name of the thread. Otherwise, it would be not a thread, but a thread-crap."
    Yes, I dropped a harsh word - sorry about that. But is not it an obvious that I was talking in general to all. I did not mean to heart anybody's feelings, I swear.

    To finish with this misunderstanding, I asked Brenda Lee to sing on my behave for misterjones as only she can.

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  20. Ethan Stoller

    Ethan Stoller Member

    Vocalist and pianist Maria Velasco made an LP on a small French label called Guilde Du Jazz in 1959, then didn't make another record until a privately issued record 20 years later. It's not surprising that she didn't become a huge star. Her intonation tends to waver a bit and the husky tone of her voice, while pleasant, is not particularly distinctive. What I like about her vocals are how unaffected they are - you feel like you are in an intimate room with her and she's sharing a story. Several of the songs on her first LP are sung in French, and the liner notes (in French) celebrate her international background (American-born, of Filipino descent, fluent in several languages).

    Have a listen and judge for yourself and enjoy!

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  21. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    I just got the DVD that has the Charlie Barnet performances, with Helen Carr singing "My Old Flame", reviewed at:
    Wild Realm Reviews: Charlie Barnet

    SKYLINER. 1950
    ANDY'S BOOGIE. 1950
    MY OLD FLAME. 1950
    CARAVAN. 1950
    CHEROKEE. 1950

    The DVD I got is "Jazz Legends: The Big Bands Volume 2", released in 2004 by Storyville Films.
    The order of the songs is a little different-it's: Skyliner, My Old Flame, Andy's Boogie, Caravan, Cherokee.
    The notes on the back cover misidentify the singer on My Old Flame as Trudy Richards, not Helen Carr.

    But it has to be the performance listed at:
    The Guide to Jazz in Film Bibliography: K - N
    The Guide to Jazz in Film Bibliography: Guides & Finding Aids (Motion Picture and Television Reading Room, Libraryof Congress)

    AFI/Myrick Collection
    Snader Telescriptions, 1950.
    3 mins., black & white, 16mm. Ref. copy forthcoming
    Performed by Charlie Barnet and his Orchestra with Helen Carr. On
    reel with several Soundies.

    Here's a screen shot:


    I also found two more Helen Carr recordings-- a single on MGM, from 1957:
    Love Is A Serious Business/It's Beautiful [MGM 12578]

    I found out about it in the November 2, 1957 issue of Cash Box at:
    Full text of "Cash Box"


    NOVEMBER 2, 1957

    Helen Carr, a veteran vocalist in
    music circles who sang with Stan
    Kenton and Charlie Barnett, cut “Love
    Is A Serious Business” and “It’s
    Beautiful”. Release date for both
    records is slated for Nov. 15th

    you can see the 45 here: 137.50 USD: Helen Carr Mgm Promotional Photo + Negative, 4 Records, Down In The...

    I just bought a copy of it. That's a total of 28 Helen Carr songs (counting the video clip).

    I also found, on ebay, this poster for a 1956 concert
    JANE POWELL & HELEN CARR Original Jazz Poster COPACABANA 1956 Bethlehem Concert | eBay

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  22. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    There may not be 28 Helen Carr songs after all; it seems there have been two singers named "Helen Carr".

    At: http://bbdb.us/c6.html

    It says: "In private correspondence, Mr. Chris Hughes, whose wife is the daughter of singer Helen Carr (b. 1922, Salt Lake City, Utah. -ed.) has advised that his wife has said:

    "I can not give you an accurate birth date for my mother Helen, but she sang with
    Hal Curtis from the mid-1940's to the mid-1950's. She had her own weekly radio show
    at 14 years of age in the mid to late 1930's in New Castle, PA. She may have sung
    under the the name of Helen Carr?? She once told me she auditioned for Sammy Kaye
    and was accepted, but decided against touring with him, choosing to stay local because
    she had a young child at home. It was just after this that he became well known. She
    did not, to my knowledge, sing with any other orchestras and I was told that she
    refused other offers for the same reason. She is in her 80's, now. (2007 -- ed.)"
    [Note: It looks like that website hasn't been updated since 2008]

    This is obviously not the Helen Carr discussed in this thread.

    The article then says:
    "In the mid-1950s, Carr recorded for the Bethlehem label, and in the late 1950s, she recorded for Atlantic with King Curtis, Al Casey and the Cumming Sisters (sides that were never released)."

    Which suggests that the credits for the Atco single, at:
    CURSON Ted
    may be wrong, and Helen isn't singing on "You Made Me Love You"--it's just the Cumming Sisters. The credits for the Wail Man Wail CD at: Wail Man Wail The Best of King Curtis 1952 1961 by King Curtis @ARTISTdirect would also be wrong.

    And while the listing for the single (recorded the same day as the 2 unreleased songs-July 1, 1958) at
    Atlantic Records Discography: 1958
    doesn't mention who's singing, it would mean the Cumming Sisters only should be credited.

    At the end of the article at http://bbdb.us/c6.html it says:

    "CAUTION: Please do not confuse with the Helen Carr who sang, and recorded, one album "Dolphins of Hollywood", with 'Baron Mingus And His Rhythm': Tommy Alexander, tpt.; Herb Caro, ts; Bob Lowry, tbn; Don Trenner, pno; Mingus, bass, scat vcl.; Johnny Berger, dr; Helen Carr, vcl;. Recorded in Los Angeles, late February-early March, 1949. (At the time, Carr was married to Don Trenner). This Helen Carr: Age 36 or 38, died in 1960. With the exception of the one song cut with Charles Mingus in 1946 and two with King Curtis later in the 1950s, her two Bethlehem albums has the complete output of the talented but short-lived singer who died in 1960 at age 36."

    They don't mention the two songs with Max Bennett-"Do You Know Why" and "They Say"- or the MGM single-Love Is A Serious Business/It's Beautiful [MGM 12578], nor do they mention the video clip of "My Old Flame".

    The single is pictured with the other items at: 137.50 USD: Helen Carr Mgm Promotional Photo + Negative, 4 Records, Down In The...

    So someone was sure it was by that Helen Carr.

    And although her daughter was sure she only sang with Hal Curtis, "Gilly Gilly Wish Wash", with Chuck Foster, may well be the "other" Helen Carr.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  23. Jbeck57143

    Jbeck57143 Well-Known Member

    IL, USA
    I forgot to note- the article at http://bbdb.us/c6.html

    is under Hal Curtis Orchestra

    That article needs to be edited because, as explained in the "Caution" below it, the paragraph
    "In the mid-1950s, Carr recorded for the Bethlehem label, and in the late 1950s, she recorded for Atlantic with King Curtis, Al Casey and the Cumming Sisters (sides that were never released)" is referring to the Helen Carr being discussed here, not the one who's daughter was quoted in the article.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  24. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    Another song for misterjones. This time by excellent Keely Smith:
    What Can I Say After I Say I'm Sorry?

    As a native American descendant, Keely belongs to this land more than anyone else, and she, I believe, belongs to our List as well.

    I want to use this opportunity to ask Ridin'High to reconsider her as the Obscure and Neglected lady of our List.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  25. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor Forum Resident

    You are (presumably) at the bookstore. On the shelf there are two large and solid books (for the same price):
    Obscure & Neglected Female Singers: Encyclopedia and
    Obscure & Neglected Female Singers: Encyclopedia (Loose version).
    What would you buy?
    I see this thread, as a unique Forum-Encyclopedia, if you want.
    There is no such thing as loose version of Encyclopedia. That's why I am a "bad guy" here.

    Nevertheless, I agree with the second version of this thread, which will rearrange all entries alphabetically by the name of the singer, collecting posts of the same artist together and cutting off everything that does not belong to the List.

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