Old 'tables vs. new

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Noel Patterson, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    That was the table I had for years but finally got rid of to get the Technics SL=QL1. I wanted a table that would auto-return because I was always nodding out and waking up to hear that sound of the turntable hitting the end of the record over and over and over...
     
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  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I want one of those late night TT's!
     
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  3. Rick Bartlett

    Rick Bartlett Forum Resident

    I like old cheap turntable finds.
    :agree:
     
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  4. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    As a lot of recordings (especially modern ones) are flawed.As a result 'accuracy' can sound bad..Many look for analogue equipment to enhance/tame/improve the sound through 'good' distortions in order to make long term listening more enjoyable.
    The trouble with modern turntables is they can sound more like CD players..Ie accurate..They may not positively color the signal in the way analogue used to.
     
  5. Newton John

    Newton John Going for the one

    Location:
    Tynedale, UK
    I am a little suspicious of the idea that two wrongs can make a right. If the record is bad, there's not a lot that can be done to correct things.
     
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  6. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Heavy Horses Operator

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Not a bad idea.. My daughter got AT-120 and it looks and sounds pretty good... Kind of Technics 1200 little brother ))).
     
  7. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Not sure about correcting.But you can make even average recordings sound more pleasant.The distortions and colorations that analogue inpart,both in recording and playback,can enhance and ease long term listening.Hell,the recordings could even sound more 'natural' because of the move away from 'accurate'.
    A bit of a softening of the lower bass.A bit of bloom in the lower mids.A bit of inner grove distortion.A bit of HF roll off..Add to that the gentle movement of a turntable spinning in the corner of the room.Especially a vintage one.And you have a more pleasant experience.

    Equipment that plays back accurately,faithfully and perfectly will sound disappointing with a fair percentage of recordings.Simply because a fair percentage of recordings sound disappointing in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 10:20 AM
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  8. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 District Champ

    Location:
    Ohio
    I get what you are saying but I think new tables do that as well. It comes from the basic contact of a stylus to a groove and the amplification of a very faint signal it creates.

    I don't think the mechanical noises that bleed into that faint signal creates bloom in the lower mids or the other pleasing distortions, it's just noise. By and large old tables have a much lighter plinth that are mostly made from plastic and the feet are very basic. The vibrations from the motor, a turning platter and sound from the speakers are more likely to impart non musical sounds into the mix, it bleeds through the stylus. I don't know that is distorting the signal as much as it is competing with it. A bit like making the audience shut up at a concert rather than playing over it.

    From my experience, old table are less likely to have as many adjustments on the tonearm, hard to find one with VTA and azimuth adjustment. The materials uses for tonearms were either aluminum or in the 80's plastic, very few new tables are using those material and it isn't because they cant.

    Don't get me wrong, an inexpensive new table is also fairly noisy. I do think a wrapped piece of MDF is better than a plastic plinth and I would take a carbon fiber tonearm over aluminum or plastic but in either case I don't think a noisy table helps either a good or bad recording.
     
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  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I have never had one, but an issue that I would have with a carbon fiber tone arm over a metal one, would be the lack of insulation from outside interference, where a metal arm is shielded.
     
  10. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    Assuming the table is fairly well built, new or old, isn't the real key to performance the cartridge and stylus? I'm not into vinyl anymore past what I own and the three vintage tables I have (in my profile) but all of them have far better specs than most sub-$500 tables. To me, the performance improvement will come in the cartridge and stylus. Or am I missing something?
     
  11. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 District Champ

    Location:
    Ohio
    Interesting, I never thought about that. I was running my Carbon in my garage and what sounded like a ground hum became intolerable. I moved it to may basement, it much quieter and the table I moved to the garage plays clean. You might be on to something.
     
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  12. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 District Champ

    Location:
    Ohio
    The cartridge/stylus and pre amp should be the thing you are listening to. Nothing else is making a noise you would want to listen to.
     
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  13. allied333

    allied333 TUBE AMPLIFIER REBUILDER - inquire

    Location:
    Fenton, MI
    Replace wiring with shielded wire and any issue in a carbon arm goes away.
     
  14. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Carbon fiber still provides a degree of shielding, carbon is a conductor. The conductivity depends somewhat on the type of fiber and epoxy used, but I think the arms will all have some conductivity. Not 100% coverage like metal arms, so agree with you there, though some of the carbon fiber arms also have an aluminum core.
     
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  15. Wasabi

    Wasabi Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lutz, FL
    I just picked up two older turntables, a Denon DP-51F and DP-60L. Externally they are in 8-9+ condition and both sound excellent. They come with attached (no RCA jacks) phono cables. I’m going to have my local guy add some RCA jacks so I can use different phono cables for about $65 each. While I have them in the shop, anything else that I should have him go over? I asked about a recap and he said don’t worry about it unless I’m having issues. I got both of these for great deals and I don’t mind adding some additional money into them if it will keep them running smoothly for several years more.

    They both sound great and are very cool...built like tanks, especially the 60L. My two Pro-Jects are on the selling block. I’m convinced vintage is the way to go.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 12:33 PM
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  16. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Heavy Horses Operator

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    I have carbon fiber arm on mine Music Hall mmf-7.3, and for the life of me I cannot hear any noise, despite tons of electronics and electric devices galore in my house. May be wiring is shielded there?
     
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  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't think it is a matter of correcting things, it is a matter of not magnifying the inherent imperfections.

    I think this is a better statement.

    Average recordings were designed to be played back by average equipment at the time.

    Not with "electron microscopes" incorporated into phono cartridges. Meaning, that technology has made significant progress in the half century that has elapsed since 1965, four years prior to man setting foot on the moon. People did not even have electronic calculator's back then. Engineering student's of the time, used slide rules. No cell phones, microwave oven's or Internet either.

    It is also not about "pleasant distortion" it was matching the recording technologies with the playback technologies of the time. It was the best that they were able to do. They were offering mass market produces records that people could afford to buy. For young people, it was the same 45's that were being played over the radio.

    What kind of stereo's does one think that fourteen and fifteen year old's had at that time?
     
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  18. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    It doesn't mean that you don't have noise. It is just the possibilities for noise are increased. Wires inside of tone arms are very thin and not shielded.

    Consider that many people experience noise that is directly related to turn tables.
     
  19. KT88

    KT88 Forum Resident

    Wires in many arms are shielded. Generally not with a run of shielded cable as that would restrict movement of the arm bearings to varying degrees. For instance, Rega uses an aluminum arm, which is grounded and acts as a shield for the wires running through it. Then the wires are terminated in a heavier, shielded cable for exiting that environment and into the preamp.
    -Bill
     
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  20. KT88

    KT88 Forum Resident

    You've got it all backwards my friend. The best things that you could do would be to sell all of the tables you currently have and put that into one, modern unit of better quality, followed by keeping only the DP-60L and selling all of the rest. When you are working with old electronics and turntables like you have there, you want to keep the tonearm wiring intact unless it has been broken. That is the best case for proper shielding, lowest noise. RCA jacks would be a mistake. The caps do need replacement now, before you have problems.
    -Bill
     
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  21. Noel Patterson

    Noel Patterson Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I think i get wrapped up in upgrade-itis sometimes; im sure we all do. Im thinking maybe spend a little and upgrade what i have; better stylus, acrylic platter, etc. From what i can see, most sub $7-800 new tables are essentially built with the same materials, just with better platters, carts, etc. I can probably build on what i have and have apretty solid table.
     
  22. Old Zorki II

    Old Zorki II Heavy Horses Operator

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    May be I have, but it is so well below audible level or all other noise in a system, so it is not important.
    May be because I am using MM cart my signal is simply is less sensitive to interference. Another 20db gain could possible result in audible noise.
     
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  23. KT88

    KT88 Forum Resident

    That would help but it would still have some of the same things holding it back a bit. If you could trade-in your current table towards a new Rega Planar 6, you'd be set for decades. Even the Planar 3 would be a keeper, but the new 6 is so nice that it's well worth the extra money. If you go that route, you only have to spend it once, then just sit back and enjoy it from then on out.
    -Bill
     
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  24. Wasabi

    Wasabi Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lutz, FL
    Thanks for the input,

    Ultimately I’ll still need to have two. I have under a grand into four so I’m not sure I can match that with new for my newb ears.
     
  25. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 District Champ

    Location:
    Ohio
    Don’t go down an upgrade path with that project. I did and it’s not worth it. By all means, buy stuff that can be used with other tables but don’t invest in things that can only be used with that table.

    I’m about $800 deep into a debut carbon and it’s not better than any $800 table.
     
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