Outlaw RR2160 thread.*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BDC, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    What was the default? And can you adjust each channel pair independently (so rears, center, mains, sub can all have different frequencies?)?
     
  2. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tacoma
    Only run a pair of mains and a sub, but I think it's all speakers or nothing with the bass management, not each ch independently. I guess default is bass management off (Bypass).
    It has a 4 way slide switch with settings for 60 80 100 and bypass.
    http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/2160manualv1.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  3. JackG

    JackG Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    It's a stereo receiver so rears and center are set to "none" by default. ;)
     
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  4. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Oh, that is SO un-imaginative! :p
     
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  5. xrqp

    xrqp Member

    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    Sterophile.com review of RR2160 was overall very positive. In spite of some negatives, I may buy one, but I am interested to hear from users, what they think about these negatives (excerpted out of context) from the Sterophile.com website.

    From Outlaw Audio RR2160 stereo receiver
    Neg 1) For the DAC in the RR2160 "I connected my Integra DPS-7.2 DVD-A/CD player to the RR2160's coaxial input, and for an entire day, CDs sounded smaller, thinner, weaker, more canned and mechanical. It was annoying, depressing. My reviewer's ego lamented: Why me, Lord? The second day was a bit better, but nowhere near the sound of my Schiit Yggdrasil or Mytek Manhattan II DAC. But on the third day the Outlaw RR2160's DAC rose up to sing, with quivering reverberant believability, ....."

    Neg 2) "Negatives. The only things that audibly hinted at the Outlaw's modest price were an ever-present softness of transients, some imaging vagaries, and occasionally, with its own DAC or phono stage, a momentary flash of unnatural brightness. ..."

    From Recommended Components: 2018 Edition Integrated Amps & Receivers
    Neg 3) "Used with a CD transport, the RR2160's Burr-Brown–based DAC didn't reach the same performance heights as more expensive outboard processors, yet nonetheless surprised Herb with its "unfettered verity."

    Neg 4) "The Outlaw's MM phono inputs performed well when addressed with a good-quality step-up transformer, though HR was disappointed by the lack of adjustability in its MC inputs."

    Neg 5) "somewhat disappointed by the measured performance of its digital inputs."

    I numbered the excerpts so you can easily reference them in your comments.

    I think Neg 1, 2, 3, and 5, maybe all are the same thing - that the DAC is not as good as an expensive DAC. I think we all expected that. But how good is the DAC built in to the RR2160? I would appreciate to hear more about that from users.

    Is it correct to say
    * The same DAC must process all digital inputs?
    * All digital inputs includes 1) computer via USB, 2) optical, 3) coaxial, 4) USB flash drives 5) Ethernet (HD radio and home shared network)?
    If that is correct, the DAC will be important to me, since I will use 1) and 5) mostly.
     
  6. Helom

    Helom Forum Resident

    Location:
    U.S.
    If the DAC really is a weakness, you could always run an outboard DAC and simply use the amp's auxiliary inputs. I wouldn't put much thought into a single Stereophile review. Owners here seem very happy with the unit. Even if it lacked those features, it seems it would still be a good value.

    Personally, I don't hear much difference in solid state DACs, and I like to think I have a fairly resolving system. There have been times when I thought a new DAC offered better performance, but later realized it was only placebo effect. For example, I own a Topping D20, a $120 "Chi-Fi" dac that I intended to replace with a Musical Fidelity V90 DAC. The V90 was rated "class A" in Stereophile for a couple of years. It did seem slightly better at first, but after some careful, level-matched comparisons, I could hear absolutely no difference between the two (no, my ears are not old and decrepit). I also couldn't hear any difference between those and my Blu Ray player's DAC.

    The above results only fed my upgrade nervosa, thus I eventually bought a Line Magnetic 502CA DAC ($1800 retail). In level-matched comparisons, the LM DAC sounds exactly like the others, but that's in solid state mode. If switched to the tube output, there's a slight increase in soundstage width and depth. So, either my cheap DACs are very good, or all my DACs are mediocre, or all solid state DACs sound the same (to my ears).:hide:
    HR of Stereophile, the guy who reviewed the Outlaw, used the LM 502 DAC in his personal system at one time.

    What I'm getting at is you should make the judgment yourself. In my personal experience, a system's DAC has about as much an effect on sound quality as cables. I wouldn't dismiss a component for its purported DAC quality.

    Outlaw offers a money back guarantee. :shh:
     
  7. JackG

    JackG Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
    I have nothing negative to say about the DAC in the 2160, sounds great to me with no glare or grain or other reviewer things one might associate with bad digital. I'll admit, though, the DAC is of secondary importance to me. The MM stage really is killer, and quiet. Yes, there is only one DAC for all digital inputs.

    I'm not a believer in DAC break-in, but if you accept what the Stereophile reviewer said about the DAC on days 1 and 2 as a negative, surely you must also accept that "on the third day the Outlaw RR2160's DAC rose up to sing, with quivering reverberant believability " as negating that? :)
     
  8. xrqp

    xrqp Member

    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    Helom and JackG, thanks for your helpful comments.

    Jeff Carlson, you mentioned your CD players DAC sounded much better than the Outlaw RR2160 DAC. Did I understand that correctly? Can you say anymore about the outlaw DAC? I guess your CD player has both outputs - analog and DAC? Is it an expensive unit?
     
  9. xrqp

    xrqp Member

    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    I got a RR2160. I was running FLAC files over digital USB from computer. The first day, over a 4 or 5 hour period, something was disappointing the first 2 hours. Did not know if it was my Ryan 610 speakers (recently purchased used one year old), or my room (kind of cramped small living room), or speaker placement (I did get them about 2 feet clear of all walls and floor). Initially I was skeptical of amp or DAC break in being a thing, so that did not occur to me, until, the last 1 or 2 hours it all sounded great. Really great. The best I ever had. (2nd best was long ago i had speakers JBL Century L100, and a larger, more open, room). So maybe DAC or amp break in is real for this unit. Then the next day it sounded very good, and verging on great.

    To Jeff Carlson: you mentioned your CD players DAC sounded much better than the Outlaw RR2160 DAC. See if you can break it in!

    SUBWOOFER LEVEL OUT seems weak. Using RR2160 line level sub out, trying different settings, driving a passive 15" Ultimax sub in sealed 3cf box. Tried 3 amps:
    1) QSC RMX1450 amp uses only balanced line level, input sens. 1.15V. At max it was noisy and weak volume, or if i turned down to reduce noise was nearly inaudible.
    2) Sony 100w/ch that uses consumer unbalance input - it was weak with volume at max. but I could hear it a little.
    3) Crown XLS 2502 allows choice of 1.4V or 0.7V sensitivity. At 0.7V worked still noisy and moderate to weak, or not noisy and very weak. Tried both bridged and not bridged.

    DIRECT BOX? Due to my sub level problems, I think next I will try a direct box between the RR2160 line sub out and the amp. I don't know why I need it when most people seem not to need it. Does anybody else need a direct box for the line sub out? Can you recommend one for this purpose w low frequency to sub? Can I get by with a passive direct box (so power plug is not needed, simpler)?

    I asked outlaw by email what is the amp line level sensitivity that would work with the bass output. They replied it is probably not enough to drive a pro amp like QSC, and he would look into it and get back to me. But immediately I replied the Crown sensitivity can be set to 0.7V and asked if that would work. No reply yet.

    Lastly, "quivering reverberant believability" ? If a joke, it is pretty funny. If serious, it seems he ran out of words, and used nonsense. Those words should be used more like this: "With quivering reverberant believability, i told my wife I was NOT stoned."
     
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  10. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Odd - I run the sub out from my home theater receiver into a pro amp (Vestax VDA-1000 bridged mono into a dual 8 ohm 15" infinite baffle manifold presenting a 16 ohm load - yes, the sub shakes the entire house when it gets going) and I don't have a problem. If you want to convert to low impedance properly a direct box will do the trick - I would recommend an Ebtech hum eliminator box (Model HE-2). It does a ground lift when it does the coversion and is completely passive. I have used them for years for various setups and they are good stuff. Ebtech - Audio Solutions
     
  11. clematis

    clematis New Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I am looking to make a significant upgrade from my Onkyo TX-8020, and I'm considering either the Outlaw 2160 or a Schiit Freya tube pre-amp paired with a Schiit Vidar power amp. I don't need it for home theater, just 2.1 stereo setup.

    Obviously, the Outlaw is more flexible, has many more input options and the built in DAC. I mostly listen to vinyl, though, and have my TV connected to play out the stereo setup. I can still run the TV to an RCA input on the Freya if I go that route. Basically, I'm looking for any advice on what would give me better sound for music (95% vinyl listening, mostly rock, blues, jazz).

    My current setup:

    Pro-Ject RPM-5 Carbon w/Hana SL
    Schiit Mani phono pre-amp
    Onkyo TX-8020 receiver

    Speakers:

    Pioneer SP-FS52
    Chane A1rx-c
    KEF Coda III

    Again, trying to decide if the extra $600 to go with the Schiit stuff is worth it. Anyone have experience with both these options?
     
  12. gwompek

    gwompek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I am back on the market for a new amp after having to change speakers. I had to give up my MA Bronze 6 for a set of KEF LS50 that the Mrs. found more visually appealing in the living room. Both the schiit Vidar + Freya/saga or the Outlaw rr2160 are supposedly good matches for the Ls50. Luckily either is a low risk proposition since you can return either.

    One of the things pushing me toward the Outlaw is the sheer lack of used units available. Since I have been paying attention (since January), I've only seen one used 2160 come up for sale but a handful of vidar and a decent number of freya/saga. I think I have only seen one 2150 go up for sale in that same period which to me speaks volumes.

    When I get the funds together I'm fairly certain I will go with the Outlaw. That said, if an amazing deal presents itself on the Schiit gear, I can't say I won't jump on it.
     
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  13. usethefourth

    usethefourth Member

    Location:
    Chicago
    Thanks for this thread very helpful. Does anyone have this paired with B&W bookshelfs (685)? Was curious about the pairing. Also, has anyone tried their bluetooth receiver for streaming? Was wondering how it compared to the Audioengine one. I'm considering this with a few others to replace by current Sansui so i can get some more power to drive the speakers
     
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  14. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tacoma
    I ran the Beatles Abbey Road newer remaster into it (only CD I tried) from my Onkyo 7030. I thought it was fake and unnatural sounding. This could of been the Outlaw DAC revealing inferiority in the CD itself. The DAC in the CD player on that CD sounded obviously superior. I've been playing my Needle drops from my new PC into the rear PC USB, and have been quite satisfied. The DAC is quite satisfying for that use. I also stream movie/TV sound off of the PC almost everyday into that USB input with nice results.
    Maybe there is something to this break in theory.

    One can't expect a $1000 dollar DAC in an $800 receiver.
    Interesting post...Thanks.....
    Lotta snake oil in this realm.
    No need hiding under the chair from me...
    I don't think the Outlaw is for people with $100 for 20' of speaker wire types.
    This is for those of us on earth.
    Now I'm heading for the bomb shelter.........

    I bet the 2160 pairs up well with these__________
    BLS Bookshelf Loudspeakers Version 2
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  15. JackG

    JackG Forum Resident

    Location:
    NJ
  16. xrqp

    xrqp Member

    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    HIGH PASS FILTER for ported subwoofer? I guess R2160 does not provide high pass filter on its sub output to protect ported subs from excessive cone excursions. Do I need to worry about this? If I need one any suggestions?

    The Harrison Labs filters seem to have slopes too shallow, so ruled them out. I don't know if foobar2000 can do it. I was thinking about a miniDSP ($100 to $200 yikes).
     
  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    If there are people out there that see these vast differences in most SS DAC's I am certainly not one of them. While I have heard some crappy SS DAC's in past days. Differences between them in more present times allude me.

    I still use the iNova to control the input source and for its Saber DAC and preamp. While DAC technology has moved forward a lot since 2011. The iNova's DAC still sounds perfect as used in the system today.
     
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  18. gwompek

    gwompek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I just ordered a b-stock unit to pair with my KEF LS-50. Can't wait to get it.
     
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  19. gwompek

    gwompek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Got my 2160 today. Have not had much time to play with it yet, so I will reserve judgement until I've gotten some more stick time. One observation is that the phono stage mm setting is really quiet. I'm used to phono stages being somewhat quieter than auxiliary inputs on other receivers but this seems extreme. I compared to my external phono stage and it was a good bit louder. Anyone else experienced this? I know these observations are very subjective and hard to quantify. I will try to take some db readings with internal phono stage vs external at the same volume and report back.
     
  20. gwompek

    gwompek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I must have spoken too soon. I left the unit powered on for 5 or so hours while I was away from the house and the difference in volume isn't nearly as staggering as it was previously. Not sure what changed, maybe it was my brain adjusting or a different LP etc. New purchase jitters and all that :laugh:
     
  21. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tacoma
    Phono stage sounds great, just gotta turn it up a little.. I use MM, but I think MC has more gain and can be used for MM carts.

    Are you using a Sub with those KEFs? I see Outlaw has B stock subs on sale..
    I use a 10" Kliptch Reference series wireless, which to me has been pretty good, but I bet the Outlaw subs are pretty damn good (better).....
     
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  22. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    These are the stats for the phono preamp ;

    Input Sensitivity/Impedance:

    High Level: 200mV/47kohms
    MM Phono: 3.3mV/47kohms
    MC Phono: 0.6mV/47kohms

    No stats on gain either on their website or the manual.
     
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  23. gwompek

    gwompek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    I'm listening now in the MC position and it sounds fantastic. I thought I would get some distortion, but can't detect any as of yet. On the MM setting I would be at about -34 on the volume. On the MC I'm down around -49 for approximately the same volume. Digital inputs stay around -47 or -46.

    No sub yet, but thinking about adding one some day. Honestly haven't looked at subs too much in the past, but I might going forward.
     
  24. kuishinbo_tantei

    kuishinbo_tantei New Member

    Location:
    nyc
    does anyone have a good solution for automatically turning this thing on / off? I'm hesitant to leave it on all the time as it gets quite warm, especially if I'm out of town for a bit.

    very happy with the sound, but my little emotiva box put itself into standby after idle and brought itself online whenever it got a signal from my DAC. is there any way to achieve something similar? I'm mainly feeding it via USB from a windows machine and over optical for chromecast audio.
     
  25. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Tacoma
    Maybe this..... At least for shutting off......
    https://www.amazon.com/Century-Heav...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00MVF16JG
    That said, is it really that hard turning it off when you leave?
     
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