Owned physical media and/or downloaded music vs streaming services.

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Price.pittsburgh, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Check that bit rate. Most "4K" are less than even the worst garbage transfers.

    There is more to a picture than pixel count.

    And yes if I am grabbing a 4K bluray from across the room there is no streaming service that looks or sounds even close. Matter of fact the same is true with a bluray or analog source. ....matter of fact a DVD has better bit rate in sadly many cases.

    Streaming rates are a joke and anyone will tell you from Sight and Sound to AVS to capsaholic to DVD beaver to bluray.com to high def digest that people that care about quality stay away from streaming.

    Call it what it is, just for the casual that don't utilize their HDTV's.

    You think you are going to get Arrow or Criterion quality on a 7.99 membership? The pitiful values have been published. 4K specs at best are around 15mbps. Do you realuze how bad that is?? A regular bluray is double that.

    Ok, so I glossed over this. Of course I know what a digital code is...often I am forced to deal in the lower quality code by removing it from package to get to the better quality bluray.

    You were talking about discs taking up space on a shelf and that is what I commented on.

    And for the record, the "cloud" takes up the companies/suppliers space, as you know it isn't magically up there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  2. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    There is more to a picture than bit rate. How many 4K movies have you streamed? Nowhere did I say streaming always beats the physical release. But for most people, it's more than good enough. And especially when it comes to less-than-pristine sources, you'd never know the difference. A lot has changed in streaming codecs/CDN over the past few years.

    Don't just take my word for it...
     
  3. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    Yep, after a certain point, higher bit rates don't contribute to noticeable improvements in perceived picture quality.

    Yep again. With the recent introduction of H.265 codecs, you can pretty much achieve the same quality picture (encoded in the previous H.264 standard) with half the bitrate (roughly).

    I often chuckle when people obsess about absolute numbers and counts of things rather than the actual quality of what they're seeing. There are thresholds both in sound and video beyond which higher numbers are irrelevant.
     
  4. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    You guys keep telling yourself that. For those of that actually look at 4K streaming and see and own thousands of blurays, the facts don't match.

    Go get a screenshot any screen shot and chuckle all you want. Streaming is crap compared to bluray.

    By the way was I really just shown an online clip to illustrate the difference??? Really?:crazy:

    Of course it is this same argument that claims that MP3 sounds the same as lossless wav and you don't need HD.

    "But for most people, it's more than good enough."

    I don't base my opinion on what joe public thinks. Most film buffs debate the hair split difference of one transfer to the next while joe public settles for garbage (and claim its better).
     
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  5. BILLONEEG

    BILLONEEG Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I don't consider digital movies something you own because you only have access to them when streaming via an internet connection. A digital copy is also not up to par when compared to a physical copy. I also consider a wall of Blu-Rays & DVD's like a wall of books...A wall of beauty.
     
    genesim likes this.
  6. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    :laughup:Here is the thing. When one is saying "good enough" or quoting codecs that are actually used the most on 4K blurays that still doesn't change the fact that file size are completely different and thus come with their inherent problems.

    People that buy blurays seek out the best of the best because even within the physical market there is quality preference. Macro-blocking, black crush, haloing, moiring, color bleed...etc. If you don't know these terms than you have no business saying "good enough". I have never, and I mean never saw any stream that was devoid of these issues. Bluray has them, so why would anyone be so pompous as to think that a stream feed with as little as a fifth of the quality would be absent them?

    There seems to be this physical media hate that has become so far outreaching that there is is this movement to actually make up facts to support and ignore the actual problems with streaming. Codecs have huge licensing cost (you know because no one works for free) along with content provided by the studios, and while people are giving their freedoms away left and right for the "convenience" to have big brother borrow and sell their information, they also do so at a great loss in quality. For some that actually care, this is not a rightful trade-off.

    When it comes to sound, the problems are 10 fold. That is why most streams comes with "dolby digital +" vs Dolby Atmos. Now Netflix has piloted Dolby Atmos with Xbox, but the licensing cost again are mounting. The push for more and more while Joe Public :laughup: is settling for less and less is what will end up hurting a lot of interfacing companies vs owners of the fabulous catalogs. The laws of economics are hard to avoid.
     
  7. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Not true, you can (very easily) download the titles to your devices. Very helpful for catching up on shows/movies when you're on a plane or somewhere where internet coverage is spotty.

    Regarding "not up to quality", what do you think about the growing list of titles that are only available via streaming/download in HD or 4K? When the physical release is of lesser quality/resolution?

    If I had unlimited space, I wouldn't mind a "wall of DVDs". But I just don't.
     
  8. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Have you seen Silence of the Lambs in 4K? It's brilliant. Oh wait, it's only available in 4K on streaming. Much better than the Blu-ray version.
     
  9. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    After reading and watching a lot of opinions expressed about 4K on YouTube, it seems like the real benefit of 4K isn't always the added resolution, but HDR and the Dolby Atmos or DTS:X sound. I've honestly never been able to hear a difference between the lossless codecs (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, PCM) and regular 640 Dolby Digital 5.1. I also do not own a 4K TV. I do have an Xbox One S which I have read supports HDR and plays 4K Blu-ray discs. To me, there really is not much benefit without a large display, good surround sound system and the ability to support HDR. I'll probably stick to regular 1080p. I think 4K streaming is ridiculous. Does anyone know how much bandwidth that requires? Most internet plans across the United States are data-capped too. Like music, I would like it instead of pushing new formats that cost more money, master the existing ones well.
     
  10. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Not for long....

    First Look at New 4K Restoration of The Silence of the Lambs

    You keep squinting on that while I am hitting the first likely 4K Criterion.

    ...and pointing to one of the oldest blurays transfers around is like claiming victory with a speedboat against a man in a potato sack while he hasn't even begun the race.

    Of course your speedboat was just a cheap copy of the real deal anyway. Good things come to those that wait.
     
  11. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    There's more where that came from. I still do purchase a ridiculous amount of 4K UHD discs. But, life is too short to wait :D You keep waiting on Criterion. They may get around to UHD, eventually. I'll be glad to pick some up, when they do.
     
  12. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I am trying to figure where there is "more where that came from"? So let me get this straight a bluray that uses mpeg2 compression from 2009 is supposed to be compared to a chopped down 4K restoration...before its bluray counterpart comes out?

    Meanwhile you are going to ignore the already hundreds of examples that absolutely destroy digital content?

    Streaming can't even get Dolby Atmos right yet but I am supposed to believe a 15mbps at best is going to beat a 100mbps of 4K bluray standard that also uses the most advanced codec.

    You enjoying those kick ass extras yet? Oh wait, they don't exist for the most part.

    But all this aside lets stop the piss contest. You are a film lover obviously and see my point. Will see if streaming ever catches up. For few examples like House of Card or Breaking Bad Season 4, I agree....for most cases, bluray whoops butt and leaves streaming bleeding, even with the "4K" advantage.

    On sound like the high quality of LP's or DTS Master Audio.....no contest because they can't even compete.

    Renters are renters, and collectors know whats up. You want quality, stay far from online because again "you never know what you are going to get"
     
  13. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Yes, I do love film. And I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are new releases (especially the horror genre) that do not have a 4K UHD discs available, yet can be purchased for a reasonable price streaming in 4K from iTunes etc. And yes, they typically have many if not all of the disc-based extras.

    I have never said the quality of a HD stream beats the quality of HD Blu-ray, same for 4K. Disc always wins, head to head. Of course!

    But streaming can have a wonderful place in the life of movie lovers, but I'm not sure you accept/agree with that. I may not have either, 5 years ago. But a lot has changed.

    Just yesterday, I bought a 4K UHD iTunes code for Power Rangers (for my kids!) for $1 USD. I wouldn't even pay $5 to own the standard BD. But for a buck (and I've bought dozens of 4K titles for <$3), it's basically the price of a rental, and 4K streaming always beats disc-based HD Blu-ray, in my experience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  14. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    There is one problem, for every dollar that is paid for air I can put it toward the thousands of Giallo films on Indicator, Signal One, 88 Films, Arrow...etc.

    I have so many stacks of movies I still don't have time for because I cam't stop with the darn sales!!

    I see your point with the bulk tv shows etc, the problem is that when you get a Criterion with 6+ hours of extras it is easy to get backlogged.

    Like the Zatoichi box set??? Streaming, yeah right. There is only one way to see that.
     
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  15. fluffskul

    fluffskul Forum Resident

    Location:
    albany, ny
    My wi-fi speed caps out at 150 MBPS and I still sometimes have delays or skips when streaming... I have to admit its not very frequent. Its almost never with Netflix, sometimes with HBO Go & frequently with Amazon Prime. I'm not sure if streaming from a cloud would be different? But I never ever have playback issues with the Blu-Rays I buy. So even though the 4K is technically better quality, I'd rather spend my cash on the physical copy that I know won't skip or pause during playback.
     
  16. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Use a LAN cable?
     
  17. fluffskul

    fluffskul Forum Resident

    Location:
    albany, ny
    My internet speed is considerably faster than the average Americans. If that isn't sufficient for a completely interruption free streaming service. Then streaming is not > Blu Ray, at this point, IMO.

    My LAN is Cat4 an delivers about 100MBS, I can actually pull faster off the 5G Wi-Fi. Albeit the signal on a LAN would probably be more consistent. But either way its not a viable option. No ethernet outputs that I could run to my entertainment setting without it going through kitchen or hallway. Wife would not improve.

    I can certainly live with the very minor and occasional interruptions I get on Netflix/HBOGo, but because of them I would say the Blu-Ray experience wins out. But I stream movies all the time, and also use physical media. There's really no reason we have to chose "physical media" or "streaming," we are lucky enough that we can have both!
     
  18. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    25Mbps is enough to stream 4K, with zero buffering or interruptions. Your issue is with your WiFi, not 4K or the bandwidth you get from your ISP.

    Try one of the commonly available (and cheap!) Ethernet over power line adapters from TP-Link, etc. I installed one at a family member's house last week, works brilliantly!

    Both is good. For $30, you can fix your Wi-Fi issues and truly enjoy the best of both worlds :)
     
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  19. fluffskul

    fluffskul Forum Resident

    Location:
    albany, ny
  20. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
  21. genesim

    genesim Active Member

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Any skipping is not coming from the connection or the provider (well not usually...the providers can suck too). Netflix in your area comes no where near 150mbps. More like 10. It is their singals that are crapping out.

    From my experience, HBO Go and Amazon Prime are much more consistent. HBO Go matter of fact is world class because they own more premium content.

    I don't think it is so much a choice between streaming and physical with me, as more the refusal (for the most part) to support "renting" that hurts physical sales.

    Of course that isn't really the reason, the real reason is that content broadcast suck even with HBO Go. As sad as it is, I look at picture quality more often than I should, and when you see black crush enough times, you cannot unsee it.

    As for running LAN through a power line does have some drawbacks. To me, there is and will always be grounding issues and worse, the radiation. I hope those are shielded properly for 30 bucks.

    Last night watched Martian for 10 bucks in 3D on bluray. This was filmed 3D. No stream can come close. None. It took me a while to get around to seeing this, and the wait was well worth it.
     

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