Paul McCartney - Egypt Station (#1 album in US) Appreciation Thread 2.0 - New and Improved

Thanks for your comments, @GubGub . I've highlighted the parts (below) that I think may get to the nub of the difference of perspective:

Firstly, Wings were - to me - an "old band". Time works differently when you're a kid. When I was 16 (1986), ten years ago (1976) was Ancient History. This was, of course, exacerbated by the change in production styles that were prevalent at those times. So my perception of Wings' reputation comes entirely from how they were portrayed in the press and rock journalism after the fact. And, as you note, that time frame fits exactly into the time frame in which mockery became the norm.

Secondly, I think UK perception of McCartney IS very different from elsewhere. At the risk of falling into cultural cliche, I think the American public is much more welcoming of success, whereas the UK public is, by and large, much more cynical of it: we much prefer our heroes to be heroic failures. Perhaps it's because we're so much better at underachieving

So I can totally understand our American friends' utter bemusement at any suggestion that McCartney's solo career isn't well regarded. I strongly suspect that his post-Beatles work is genuinely more well liked on the other side of the pond. But all I can speak to is my own perspective.

For the record, here's a brief overview of McCartney's chart career as it relates to UK singles:
Another Day - huge hit. Unsurprising, given that it was his first solo single.
Back Seat Of My Car - flop. Failed to make the Top 40. Remarkable, given that it was only his second single and was by an ex-Beatle. Possibly the first mainstream record by a Beatle to fail.

His Wings career comprises a set of perfectly respectable but utterly unremarkable chart histories. Most of his singles make the Top 10, none get higher than #3 (Band On The Run). Only one single from Venus and Mars breaks the Top 40.

Wings at the Speed of Sound achieves a remarkable feat: the album peaks at #2. So does the first single (Let 'Em In) and, yep, you guessed, so does Silly Love Songs. So near and yet so far...

Then, of course, we have the record-breaking defying-all-the-odds Mull of Kintyre. McCartney's first solo #1 single, but what a single...

Thereafter, however, we sink back into that unremarkable pattern: the first single from an album or non-album single does fine (makes the Top 10) but nothing else breaks the Top 40.

And then McCartney goes solo. He has a string of genuine hits from Coming Up through to We All Stand Together but this is somewhat balanced by the fact that most of them are celeb collaborations.

Then it all falls apart...

So, as far as the UK is concerned, the only singles likely to achieve any longevity are those that rose above and beyond. And they are few and far between. Several songs peaked at #2 (but who remembers the runner up?) and only Mull of Kintyre (a song derided by many), Band on the Run (perhaps because its the title track of his most successful solo album) and Live and Let Die (which, of course, came from a Bond film and was successfully covered by Guns and Roses) seem to have lasted. And that was my own experience of getting into Wings back in the mid 80s. I remember buying Wings Greatest, and those three named songs were the only ones I'd ever heard.

And, by and large, they're also the only songs most others I know remember - along with, perhaps, Coming Up, Silly Love Songs and, yes, That Song With The Frogs In It. And that's the basis on which I think most music-loving people judge McCartney's solo career in the UK.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on chart performance. There are many songs that achieve a longevity unrelated to their chart success. Off the top of my head, both Surfin USA and California Girls by The Beach Boys failed or only just cracked the UK Top 30 but are now acknowledged classics that are regularly played on the radio. To use your own example, Don't Dream Its Over by Crowded House only just made the top 30 here and was ludicrously a bigger hit for Paul Young from what I recall but is a staple of oldies radio. Conversely, some very big hits have a very short shelf life.

Jet certainly has had proven legs. I hear Listen To What The Man Said a surprising amount and to a lesser degree With A Little Luck too. Most importantly, Maybe I'm Amazed is often lauded as McCartney's greatest song inside or outside of the Beatles. It was never a single until the live version in 1976 so its commercial performance is considerably lower than its critical reputation.

Just a note on Back Seat Of My Car. I love that song but it was always an odd choice for a single and was not issued until three months after its parent album, which goes a long way to explaining its commercial performance. I never understood why Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey was not issued here, especially as it was a US number 1 but US and UK tastes were diverging at this point. McCartney/Wings had a string of number 1s in the US that performed less well here. McCartney's biggest UK hits failed in the US. John Lennon's Whatever gets You Thru The Night (the first single I ever bought) was a US number 1 and barely scraped the chart here. Popular taste in the UK has always been more volatile than our American friends. Go figure.

 

I'm not. Others are. The whole point of my argument is that chart success has nothing to do with legacy

I was merely offering some context for our American friends as to why I suspect the UK doesn't adore McCartney's solo career the way the US appears to.

 

I guess Paul’s Status as a hit-maker died because he got older and the hit-parade mainly is for younger artists. Just as some pointed out chart-success has little to do with legacy from an artistic wiew. Fact is Paul’s legacy will always be first the Beatles and secondly his own/Wings. The later however is a legacy that I personally believe is more recognized today than back in the days. Also I guess it will always be there for those interested. Don t think it will vanish in a long time
But he never will beat the Beatles

 

As can be proven by the elevation of Nick Drake and Big Star. Sometimes a legacy isn't even established in real-time.

 

I wouldn’t have thought so. Can’t say I was aware of any dislike for the pan flute but maybe I’ve not been paying attention.

 

Yeah, I wasn't aware of an anti-pan flute contingent.

 

Reading recent posts on this thread, I've a feeling UK people are so hard to please. I also do not understand why Mull of Kintyre is hated there. It's a beautiful song about a beloved place. It should be a well loved song there or in Scottland at least. Very strange.

 

Watch: ‘Come On To Me’ (Official Video)

"Today Paul publishes the official video for the track bringing together all three stories / dance routines"

"Now, after these formal introductions, we have some perhaps surprising news to share: Fred, Ali nor Elsa are professional dancers / actors. They were found by director TG Herrington, getting their acting debuts by sheer force of enthusiasm."

 

Good points. I didn't pay any attention to McCartney from about '77 until Flaming Pie (other than being aware he was putting out successful singles...that I wasn't particularly interested in), so his "legacy " to me doesn't include any of the stuff that you describe as the mockery years.

When Flaming Pie was released I just thought, wow, he hasn't missed a beat.

 

It is not hated, though is derided (Bagpipes and it's huge success make it an easy target).

We Brits love the underdog and seem to resent success so many of us will openly mock things when they become too popular. Every insanely popular song will have some detractors in the UK.

Yeah, you are wrong. Many things make up an artists legacy and one of them is success and mass appeal. To say they have nothing to do with legacy is demonstrably false.

Paul H gave two examples of acts he considered to have good sales but little legacy, yet here in the UK both Drake and Big Star are far less well known than either Slade or Bay City Rollers. Certainly a travesty in my opinion, but Cum on Feel the Noise and Merry Xmas will always have a greater legacy than anything by Nick Drake.

Legacy has many factors, for example Vera Lynn died last year and it was a pretty big deal, her legacy was built on her huge popularity rather than artistic merit (no offense Vera).

 

I know nothing about Nick Drake other than Pink Moon. I listed him because his name gets inserted onto all sorts of music related lists lately. To me, he came out of nowhere and now, evidently, has a legacy.

Big Star, too...out of nowhere, after the fact. (Though, I did have an Alex Chilton album so personally am more familiar with them).

"greater legacy"---now you're talking levels! Beyond my pay grade.

As far as "legacy" goes. There's bands that had a few hits in the 60's that are doing the casino circuit as "legacy" acts. I believe you and I are on the same page when you refer to a single song as establishing a legacy (Cum On Feel the Noise). (I'm taking your word for that particular song as Slade, as far as I know, didn't make a dent over in the U.S. where I'm from.)

 

Er...Vera Lynn is still alive. She is, remarkably, 101 years old.

But other than that I tend to agree with you. In order for a piece of music to feed into legacy it needs to be familiar beyond just a limited or devoted fanbase so either it needs to have reached a lot of people by way of being a hit or it has, for whatever reason, achieved a longevity and found an audience beyond its original commercial performance. So popularity, albeit not necessarily sales is definitely a part of it.

Having said that, not all big hits (possibly very few of them) will have those qualities and not all songs that do have them have been big hits.

 

Regarding Egypt Station and how it relates to recent discussions here:

The amazing thing about ES is the consistency of good to great songs over the full length of a long LP.
Whenever Macca did this in his Wings/solo years, he has garnered deserved praise and sales, if not immediately, eventually , later in some cases.

In 1970 I made the calculus that if Paul could contribute about 50% to great Beatle albums and I liked 80% of those - I would apply the same standard to his solo and Wings work. Sometimes he exceeded my expectations, sometimes, not.

So, if a Wings album or solo had 12 songs - I’d throw out songs he did not write or sing lead on and expect to like almost half of the songs remaining that featured mostly him. The other half would have some good stuff, within, , but obviously missing elements that would have elevated those songs.

This made - and still makes sense. We know if he wrote the same Wings/solo songs with the post 70’s mythical Beatles - he’d have the lesser and incomplete songs bolstered by :

A. John contributing to improving and completing songs with writing contributions.

B. The recording process would involve musical contributions from John, George, Ringo and George M.

This would “clean up” lesser songs and bring them up to standard McCartney -Beatle excellence, like much of Egypt Station.

C. Constant touring did not happen for long stretches when his competition was doing so, which took the relationship of his audience away and hampered efforts to write rockers - while he utilized a lighter, more radio friendly pop sound.

For when he did tour - ala -Wings Over America - he stood toe to toe with anyone. Not doing so affected his rep as a rock and roll artist.
But he earned back some of the lost Rock and Roll lustre and replaced it with Family Way Macca, earning fans and praise for sacrificing his music career a bit to dedicate himself to raising his family.

 

That's fine... To each their own.

 

But does The Other You like you?

 

Oh yes, I think so!

 

How a proud 610 Stomper became star of Paul McCartney's New Orleans-shot music video

"Herrington knows McCartney’s manager, Scott Rodger, who is also based in New Orleans (until 2017, Rodger managed Arcade Fire, whose principals live here). After discussing the “Come On To Me” video concept with Rodger, Herrington submitted a treatment, and landed the directing job.

He envisioned three people working the night shift who, thinking they are alone, let loose to “Come On To Me.” The twist is that someone sees them and, after an awkward moment, joins in.

Determined to shoot entirely in New Orleans with a local cast and crew, Herrington sought “real people,” not professional actors or dancers, to make the performances more authentic."

"What did McCartney think of Marina’s performance?

“He went nuts over it,” Herrington said. “It’s hard not to. It’s pure magic on screen.

“It’s not trying to be cool. It’s not over-thought. It’s just 100 percent joyful. It makes you want to get up and shake your ass, all because of the main character, and the track. Paul was blown away by all the performances. He loved the uniqueness that each brought to the table.”"

 

Honestly, I have understood and agreed to an extent with the common 'complaint' that Come On To Me drags a bit, goes on too long. For me, it doesn't bother me a bit, but I can most certainly agree with those who say that.

After watching the video with the cop- I don't care to watch the other two people, so I haven't- I can now completely understand what people mean when they say it goes on too long. It does go on too long, never mind the dancing just not fitting.

I can see a shorter version, having an associated ordinary dance-a-long....

Let's say they are naturally dancing to it, having never heard it prior. The song actually gets them dancing. But after a few minutes, I imagine actually being them and starting to think "okay, does this ever end?" and questioning whether they should keep dancing before it gets boring.

Note, I still like the song regardless. Videos will never change my perception of a song. Not one of my very favorite McCartney tracks, but certainly don't dislike it.

 

LUXURY!! [At the risk of sounding like one of four Yorkshireman...]

 

It doesn't usually work that way.

But never say "never". Case in point, XTC's song Dear God, was not initially on their Skylarking lp, but was released as a b-side until it was added by popular demand and boosted sales of said lp.

Dear God (XTC song) - Wikipedia

"Dear God" is a song written by Andy Partridge of the English rock band XTC, released as the B-side to the single "Grass" from their 1986 album Skylarking. It was inspired by a series of books with the same title, seen by Partridge as exploitation of children. After college radio DJs across America picked up the song, Geffen Records recalled and repressed the album with the track included.[1]

...

"Dear God" did not appear on initial pressings of Skylarking, but was included as part of the album's original planned running order, which was sequenced by producer Todd Rundgren.[4] According to Partridge, the track had been left off the album because a Virgin Records executive was concerned about the album's length, and advised that the song may upset American audiences; "I reluctantly agreed because I thought I hadn't written a strong enough take on religion. I thought I'd kind of failed."[5] Rundgren had a different recollection, and said that Partridge demanded that the song be pulled because "He was afraid that there would be repercussions personally for him for taking on such a thorny subject. ... What a *****. ... I called them and said, 'This is a mistake.'"[6] The first verse and closing line are sung by eight-year-old Jasmine Veillette, the daughter of a friend of Rundgren. In the video a boy lip-syncs her vocals.[7]

The song's anti-religious lyrics inspired some violent incidents. In Florida, a radio station received a bomb threat, and in New York, a student forced their school to play the song over its public-address system by holding a faculty member at knife-point.[8] Nonetheless, the commercial success of "Dear God" propelled Skylarking to sell more than 250,000 units, and it raised the band's profile among American college youth.[1]

 

I'm ok with the pan flute.

But then again, I like bagpipes...

 

I'm in that crowd

 

Your ability to be downright rude has me contemplating returning the favour in kind. But I'm not going to tell you you're "wrong", I'm merely going to ask you to explain how albums like Velvet Underground And Nico and, to a lesser degree perhaps, Layla And Other Assorted Love Songs get to be considered as classics when neither of them so much as tickled the charts? Do these examples make me "demonstrably right"? No, thought not.

And I'll go back and ask you what Phil Collins' legacy is. Or what Boyzone's might be.

My point (perhaps badly made) is that chart sales do not automatically determine legacy.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are wrong on this matter. For future reference how would you ratther be told that you are wrong?

At what point in any of my posts have I stated that legacy is ONLY down to sales? None of them. It is relevent just like critical appraisal (both contemporary and retrospectively), as well as the appraisal of an popular artists career as a whole ( Pitchfork or over reviewers are more likely to rereview trashed albums of artists like McCartney than those who faded into obscurity).

You were wrong when you claimed sales had nothing to do with legacy and rather than accept that are now trying to present a straw man argument.

Your claim was that sales had nothing to do with legacy? How does the above help you?


And for the record The Velvet Underground & Nico has sold over a million, possibly millions worldwide as has Layla. These are hardly examples of legacy without sales.

Collin's legacy is (regrettably) huge, both as a member of Genesis and solo. The hip hop community regularly laud him as an influence, Kanye loves his work.

20 Times Rappers Showed Love to Phil Collins - XXL

You seem to be under the impression that if you and your social circle find something uncool then everyone must, it does not work like that. I'm not a fan of Phil but the only Brits that rival his legacy from his era are Kate Bush and Sting

They didn't write, play or produce the majority of their music, so influence wise not great. Tough to say, not great, but I really fail to see the comparison with McCartney's legacy?

That alone does not determine it, but it clearly contributes.