Paul McCartney greatest flaw as an artist ?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by johnny moondog 909, Mar 11, 2018.

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  1. uyk

    uyk New Member

    Location:
    san francisco
    I'm sorry but I honestly don't see this connection between how much tragedy you have suffered in your life to how good you are as an artist. I strongly believe that music doesn't and shouldn't have to be autobiographical to be good. I don't care if a song is about losing a girlfriend in a car accident and the singer didn't actually lose a girlfriend in a car accident. Because I don't listen to a song and decide that yes, this song moves me, after I did my fact-checking. Like books, the author doesn't have to experience everything that they are writing about for it to be believable, just like the musician doesn't have to experience what they are singing about for it to reach the listeners.
    And your point about the many people connecting to the universal feelings of insecurities, failing, anger etc, in Lennon's songs, I can also argue that an equal amount of people also connected to the universal feelings of joy, hope, and sorrow etc, in McCartney's songs. But I wouldn't shoehorn them or their songs either way. :p

    Also like the above poster is arguing, what are your exact criterias for "a lot of hurt" ? Honest question. :p
     
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  2. idreamofpikas

    idreamofpikas Forum Resident

    Location:
    england
    I'm sorry, but you are talking about issues that most people face at some point in their life. Paul, unlike John, did not let this 'hurt' consume him. He was able to stay positive about it, able to move on. It is a hugely admirable quality.


    Nor do I, but the vast majority of people do and I was giving my reasons why I think most people have came to this conclusion. Irrespective of what you or I think of Paul as a lyrisisct


    Questions look a lot more honest and sincere when you don't end them with insufferable smileys.
     
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  3. maccafan

    maccafan Senior Member

    I think the way the vast majority thinks, is one of the main reasons the facts and points have to be made, because they aren't really aware, or don't really look into those facts and points. They have to be brought out, because they totally go against the misconceptions!

    McCartney didn't let the hurts of life consume him, but he did have to face them, and there were many!
     
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  4. Bruce M.

    Bruce M. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hilo, HI, USA
    I think "Chaos" is just fine as is. House of Wax and Only Mama knows would have totally spoiled the mood.
     
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  5. maccafan

    maccafan Senior Member

    I agree, I think HOW and OMKs are perfect right where they are, on one of McCartney's best albums, Memory Almost Full!
     
  6. jwoverho

    jwoverho Licensed Drug Dealer

    Location:
    Mobile, AL USA
    His gift of melody is sometimes paired with lyrics that don’t rise to the level of the melody. It’s almost if the “scrambled eggs, I love your legs” that was once used as a placeholder ended up being kept for the final song.

    He was definitely his best as a lyricist in The Beatles, where he was often able to write at a level with Lennon’s work. I’m particularly fond of his writing around the time of REVOLVER: “For No One” is as fine a set of lyrics as he ever put to paper.
     
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  7. BDC

    BDC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tacoma
    I voted Gravitas..... but I easily could of not voted at all because of not having real strong feelings on it. I do like Paul the rocker but for my taste I'm down/Helter Skelter are not among his good ones, no way I could make that vote. That said, I do find some redeeming qualities in those songs.

    Here's my camp, I like some of his rockers and some of his ballads and everything he did in the Beatles to some level. My taste is what it is, though I like to think it's always expanding somewhat.
    Paul went through boot camp and tours of duty in the Beatles, achieving great success and enabling himself to largely do whatever the hell he wanted for the rest of his life. This he has done. I can't fault Paul for not always making music that I personally like. Though consensus exists on many opinions I generally consider quality of music something that can't be quantified. I allow exceptions for mistake filled playing, than can be quantified. I respect Paul as a musician and human being as well, as I do all the Beatles.
     
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  8. jwb1231970

    jwb1231970 Ordinary Guy

    Location:
    USA
    Greatest flaw? That there is only one of him.
     
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  9. Hoover Factory

    Hoover Factory Old Dude Who Knows Things

    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Completely agree. Paul writes songs about himself and his feelings all of the time. I don’t know what people are listening to. On “Hey Jude” he is consoling himself after his breakup with Jane Asher. His famous suite on Abbey Road is about his insecurities about that the Beatles were in trouble. “Every Night” is about his depression with the Beatles breaking up. “Queenie Eye” is about his feelings for Heather Mills (“Dogs and bitches hunt for fame...wicked witches fan the flames...O-U-T spells out” - how could people miss what that song is about?). I could go on and on.
     
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  10. Paul H

    Paul H The fool on the hill

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    Part of the problem seems to be that no-one is prepared to accept that when a man is in a good place emotionally, he may well write happier material. It doesn't mean it isn't personal. Sure, many of his songs are about the universality of love but, come on, it doesn't take a genius to work out that he's probably also writing about himself. Or perhaps it does. I'd argue that everything from Maybe I'm Amazed and Too Many People through to Silly Love Songs and Mull of Kintyre are intensely personal but people just seem to see through that because of the happy-go-lucky thumbs-aloft image that goes with them.

    Lennon's "confessional" writing was so well liked because it was full of pain and angst. McCartney's "confessional" writing was often softened by a pleasant or happy melody. Take "Man We Was Lonely". That surely is a personal song and a sad one at that. And yet you wouldn't think so from the way he presents it.
     
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  11. Beatle Ed

    Beatle Ed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hertfordshire
    It was still obviously too many though (and there have been long periods in the past when he has released a continuous flow of records every year or two, when doing nothing would have served him better). Alhough he doesn't bring new material out as often nowadays, it seems like it's more to do with pace slowing down naturally due to getting older.

    Seriously though, it's better to not release anything if it doesn't match former highest quality. He's a victim of his own high standards in the '60s but that would be a spur to make me want to do better now as he knows that's the benchnark all subsequent work is going to be judged by.
     
  12. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    This is all Faul's fault, not Paul's.
     
  13. idreamofpikas

    idreamofpikas Forum Resident

    Location:
    england
    Better for who?

    All three albums released have received positive reviews, New in particular. New by Paul McCartney
     
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  14. maywitch

    maywitch Forum Resident

    Yes, I've seen this. It's funny the artists are usually far more well-rounded and open-minded than their fans. That's why they are artists really, it's pretty hard to be a good artist and be narrow minded.
     
  15. maccafan

    maccafan Senior Member

    Exactly!

    For some reason it doesn't matter how many positive reviews McCartney gets, his music still isn't as good as what he did with the Beatles!

    I've said and will always say, McCartney has written plenty of songs, and yes I do mean plenty, that are just as good and some better than some Beatle songs!

    Some Beatle albums have not so good filler just like some McCartney albums, some Lennon albums, some Harrison albums, some Ringo albums! In every stage of each of their careers there's been some not so good filler! They've never been perfect!
     
  16. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    A lot of it has to be put in time-perspective; the types of songs and melodies Paul was writing in the Beatle days were fresh and, in great part, a class all their own at THAT time. While great songs, it's quite likely that at least some of them would not have had the same impact had they been put out 10 or more years later as they did at the time of release. conversely, there are a number of more current songs of his which would have "played" much more strongly in the 60's than they do today. For example, a song such as Queenie Eye would have placed much better in 1967 than it does today. The same can be said about the "new" Anthology tracks, FAAB and Real Love.
     
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  17. maywitch

    maywitch Forum Resident

    Honestly Paul's whole LIFE is in his songs - his pain, his joy, his sadness, his hopes and dreams, his every day life, his weirdness for lack of a better word, his everything. I don't really understand how people miss except deciding to not to see it. He's put it all there in this wonderful varied tapestry for us to see(or hear as the case may be).

    It's kind of funny so many consider it PAUL's flaw that he often hasn't spelt it out for them rather than their own for not being willing to see anything but the barest surface level.(or not even their flaw, but just not their thing, and not being "their thing" doesn't mean it's a flaw of Paul).

    I mean "Me, Me Me, Me and my feelings are the center of the universe in no uncertain terms" is basically toddler level so I can't really consider it a well placed criticism of Paul if he's often been above that level when it comes to expressing his in his art.

    And who created the rule that a novelist can write about fictional characters or situations and be telling the truth but a songwriter can't anyway? Oh I know. No one did. It's not a rule.

    You know I don't know if it would have been better to have it on C & C but I do love Ever Present Past and can't imagine how Godrich could think it sucked. That's a fantastic song.

    Exactly, does it make Shakespeare less of a great writer because he didn't live in Renaissance Italy? Or because he was born a hundred years after Richard III died? How is happiness, hope, etc less of a genuine, true feeling than any other feelings are? They aren't.

    However this is the most true. Not letting pain consume him doesn't mean his pain was any less. His mother died when he was 14 and he and his brother weren't even told how sick she was and then they weren't allowed to go to her funeral and they they were packed off to a relatives for a couple of months and were basically told not to bring it up or talk about it because that's just how things were done. His brother Michael as far back as some article in like 1965 or 66 made the point about Paul's total obsession with music happening after his mother's death, yet somehow many fans never seem to relate the two. Music was(and largely still is) Paul's coping mechanism, his comfort. That's why I say it's all there, in the songs, his life--not just the parts that would be "cool" or make a good impression on those who ought to be impressed, but all of it. I actually think its possible Paul's put more of his actual life into songs than John did overall.

    In any case I'm not sure why Paul is held to such a higher standard with regards to lyrics than so many others, with all the absolutely daft lyrics there are in songs. Yet apparently trite lyrics are better than lyrics that might use an unusual word like "salamander". :) I love that Paul used the word salamander(as a "term of endearment", though maybe not so dear, for this changeable loved one:)) in a song. In the same song he also managed to use the word chisel and warn cattle of snipers and sailors of the weather(though I dare say the sailor who needs to beware of the weather is the same guy trying to win his "salamander's" heart away from the other guy, maybe not such a good idea, esp after gluing his fingers together might just be an omen that this is not the right direction to be heading in life, or at the very least nothing is going to be easy:)).

    On a side note we know he was rather handy around the house, the guy had hit a chisel to make a joint and glued his fingers together so it's a little look into Paul McCartney's life. And it's the same guy who also used the word "pataphysical" in a song lyric for a song many people deride, yet it's another song that creates a really interesting world which has a certain amount of reflection back on our own(the serial killer has fans for example). A man of very wide interests, life experiences and unique viewpoints, is our Paul. And we've gotten to see so many of them in his songs.
     
  18. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan Thread Starter

    Apparently McCartney agreed with you.

    Sonically the 2 albums are world's apart, hearing those 2 songs with Godrich's Sonic's, instead of David Kahne's.

    So what I suggested doesn't even exist. But if I imagine those 2 rock songs, House of wax & Only Mama Knows, with Godrich's lighter, cleaner, less compressed approach, I can easily see them as adding a very welcome side to Chaos that isin't there on the existing album. As great as Chaos is, 11 out of 13 being mellow & slow tunes hurts the potential greatness, of an otherwise all time classic album. Even just 1 track subsitution of a slow & average song like Follow Me. Exchanging Only Mama or House Of Wax would have made an enormous difference, doubled sales.
     
  19. Mumbojunk

    Mumbojunk Forum Resident

    I like pretty much everything he has done to some degree, so it was a tough choice. I have no problem with his diverse output (in fact, I'd say it is a huge part of what sets him above most artists), while "gravitas" is very subjective -- one man's gravitas is another's ponderous, pompous self-importance. Likewise his choice of songs on albums -- we'd all disagree about about what should or shouldn't have made the cut for some albums (eg. I can't believe he abandoned So Like Candy but included How Many People on FITD), but in the end he has to go with his instincts and what feels right when he's mixing an album. And spotty on hard rock? You've got to be kidding me.

    In the end, I went for the lyric option. I think he's actually a very good lyricist for the most part, and while he's often oblique in his writing, he clearly channels his thoughts, feelings and reflections into the majority of his songs (as a number of recent posts have eloquently pointed out). It's all there if you care to listen, he's just not as obvious as some of the so-called "weighty" writers people like to laud. However.....there are times when he could've tried harder, and it's frustrating. For example, I find some of the lyrics on 'Driving Rain' and 'Chaos' to be undercooked -- he lapses into bland, cliched sentiments at times, fails to tell a cohesive story, or is self-consciously trying to be poetic (Jenny Wren and Anyway suffer from all of these, for example). Or he goes with a first draft which simply isn't good enough and needs more work (From A Lover To A Friend). And yet, there are great lyrics smattered through both albums (Lonely Road, I Do, Riding To Vanity Fair, A Certain Softness, etc.). Like I say, frustrating.

    However, if there had been an option in the poll along the lines of "he doesn't sufficiently rate, value, promote or look after his own back catalogue", I would definitely have plumped for that one.
     
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  20. Bruce M.

    Bruce M. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hilo, HI, USA
    First, I agree that Godrich's production would have improved Only Mama Knows or House of Wax. But nothing short of divine intervention would have doubled the sales of any of Paul's recent albums. He's a geezer, known only as a historical figure (if at all) to the kids who buy most music. Radio ignores him. He's not going to have any more million sellers, much as I may think he deserves them.
     
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  21. Unless he's working with Kayne.
     
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  22. tages

    tages Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    These are just a couple highlights from one of the best and most sensible posts I’ve ever read here.

    Well done.
     
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  23. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    Mary Had a Little Lamb ...

    but seriously folks my biggest bug bear with Macca is something nobody else seems to pick up on, since the 80's when singing what have become his " standards " he appears to put on some kind of affective voice, a bit like he is almost trying to do an impression of himself, like a Macca tribute act.

    Select say a view of him doing Let it Be in the film or yesterday in concert in 1965 ( from Blackpool night out ? ) and compare them to more modern concert or live tv performances and you may be able to tell what i mean.

    i just wish he would sing more naturally, as much as i love him he just comes across as so fake and insincere.

    so maybe then it's his apparent insincerity that i find his biggest flaw.
     
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  24. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    this post sums up perfectly why the Beatles were so good, Paul and John were each others quality control, the filler on their albums would rarely have made it to a Beatles record.
     
  25. johnny moondog 909

    johnny moondog 909 Beatles-Lennon & Classic rock fan Thread Starter

    Well this was 11-12 years ago, when McCartney was still a more youthful 62-63, he wasn't going to recapture the teen market like the Beatles or Wings, but in 2005 there were a lot more boomers & tweeners still buying CDs of classic rock. But you're right & I didn't mean literally it would "double sales" although it might have. Chaos is a nearly flawless album that sold well to McCartneys base of fans & also to the general public, based on good reviews I imagine.

    The only flaw in Chaos imo, is only 2 upbeat songs. I suppose 3 if you want to count Friends to go. As I said before if you added House of wax & Only Mama Knows as they would've been produced by Godrich, & dropped say Follow Me & one other weaker slow song, with 4-5 upbeat rocking tunes instead of just 2-3, I think in hindsight, the album would've broken much bigger, or could have.

    The album as is, is very nice, sonically, lots of textures, good songwriting, really good songwriting. Godrich did a great job getting McCartneys lead vocals to sound good. Compare it how he sounded with Kahane producing. MAF is a good album too, except for 2-3 really bad tracks where McCartneys singing sounds awful. Same on Driving Rain, Kahane didn't do much to enhance McCartneys vocals on that album either, & he was only about 58 then. But MAF has mostly good songs & 5-6 catchy upbeat songs, so lots of people like it better, maybe without really analyzing why..

    Look McCartney at 75 is on borrowed time as a vocalist, he's 75 for God's sake. In hindsight it's not controversial to recognize, gee if Chaos had those 2 upbeat songs, the overall tone would be mostly the same, a mellow reflective album, but with enough rocking tracks as redmeat to increase sales substantially. Just one man's opinion.

    I'm hoping for miracles on another good album in 2018 to follow NEW. He's been doing incredible quality work basically since 1997 with Flaming Pie, as if the Beatles reunion itself, the tragedies of losing Linda, Neil Aspinall & George Harrison, the realization of legacy, aging, a finite amount of time, struck a chord with him at some point. It's a lot harder at 55-65-70 with a billion dollars in the bank, to concentrate, create, he might be, arguably having the greatest late career run of any pop artist in history. Sure Dylan, Neil Young, The Zombies, Ray Davies, Roger Daltrey & others need to be considered, Robert Plant maybe. But Flaming Pie through NEW is one of great late period runs ever. Although personally I'm not keen on Driving Rain or Kisses On The Bottom. At 75 I'm viewing the upcoming album as probably the last one with expectations or hopes of greatness or high quality. He may do 1-2 more pop albums after this one that's coming up, but I expect he'll retire from touring & new pop albums pretty soon. Though we might expect more classical or ambient albums, or for him to produce one by his son. Just my opinion, based on his age, no little bird whispered in my ear. BUT I do think McCartney has 8-10 albums of unreleased pop-rock stuff on the shelf, at a minimum. I'd think he'll write his memoirs, concentrate on unreleased stuff, maybe issue the classical guitar concierto that's been ready for 10 years. Advances in medicine have given the McCartneys & Bob Dylan's of the world an extra 10-15 years of artistic life, who could have imagined in 1965, that artists would be doing hip rock albums well past 70? Maybe up to 80-82 ?, For those that lived & stayed healthy.

    Chaos very well might've added another million to it's overall sales with Mama Knows & House Of Wax on there. I really like the Chaos bonus tracks too, especially Growing Up Falling Down, yikes another slow one !!!! But it's got ultracool hipness Growing Up Falling Down... Comfort of Love nearly makes it as the "missing rock track" but he could've really used Rusty & Abe or Jason Falkner to put a little more into it, simple & lightly produced is fine, but Comfort of Love is missing a little something, backround vocals, or the input of a 2nd guitarist, maybe Abe thundering on real rock drums instead of McCartneys barely competent drumming... In fact to those uncomfortable lifting 2 tracks from the MAF album, Comfort of Love would've achieved the same thing If they dug up a 2nd rock tune, & if they made Comfort a hit hipper, maybe give Rusty & Abe a crack at tracking that one...all water under the Bridge now. Chaos is 12-13 years old, can you believe it....and finally, Growing Up Falling Down is too hip to not be on the album, just dump Follow Me & one other track...there's one Chaos track nobody's ever heard, something about a drowning fish, he could've just made the whole thing a double CD of 20 tracks..
     
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