Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by englishbob, May 27, 2014.

  1. I was emailing with Kevin of KAB about the differences between the tonearms of the G/GAE vs. the GR. He doesn’t have a G arm for comparison.

    He didn’t know much for certain except that one has a magnesium arm tube and the other one is aluminum. He said there was some suggestion that the bearings may be better in the G, but he didn’t have any specific evidence.

    He also thought the G arm would at least have the same wire that was in the M5G, and that is pure copper.

    As to the great cost difference, his research lead him to conclude that aluminum alloys are less expensive and have a lower die casting cost. Magnesium alloys are expensive, and the die casting cost is quite high.

    Somebody needs to buy one of those G arms and take it apart!:agree:
     
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  2. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Just a quick update on the GR/G headshell - there are a couple of slight differences. One is the finish - where the GR has a slight texture to it the G headshell I purchased from Panasonic is smooth. The only other difference that I noticed was a pleasant one, the finger lift, along with being thinner on the G, is also longer - making it that much easier to manually place/lift it on/off of the record.

    I don't have a scale but weight felt the same. Wiring looked the same. Other dimensions were the same.

    It does seem weird that they crafted two different headshells that are very similar with one costing $9 more than the other.
     
  3. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    No. I've heard instantly noticeable very obvious differences with the same cart on different turntables. I'm sure others have as well.
     
  4. displayname

    displayname Active Member

    Location:
    Dallas
    I've read that the differences are the magnesium and the bearings. I would think/ hope the wiring is also upgraded, but I haven't found anything supporting that. I think we'll learn more about it when the SP-10 tone arm options come out.
     
  5. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    I've been calling around looking for a 1200G and while GRs are readily available, Gs are scarce. However, I found a GAE if anyone wants to spend $5k!!!
     
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  6. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Still waiting for them to release the price of the upcoming SP10R.
     
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  7. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    That could be scary for us mere mortals.
     
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  8. displayname

    displayname Active Member

    Location:
    Dallas
    Is your wallet a dump truck? Because it's going to be a truckload of cash.
     
  9. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    We’ll see. If I can get it either through MSRP or discount at around $8k, then I’m going for it.
     
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  10. Don’t blame you. I think it will probably be under $10k. $8k for that actually isn’t bad considering the prices on the high-end audiophile turntables currently on the market. And I’m guessing it will be better than most of what’s out there at any price, given how good the SL-1200G is. Look forward to seeing this thing next summer!
     
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  11. displayname

    displayname Active Member

    Location:
    Dallas
    From what I've read the general guess is probably somewhere in the 8-10 range, but that's before you add a plinth and arm. I think it's going to be hard to get your hands on the full SP10 for under 10. Unless you have some connections.
     
  12. RPM

    RPM Active Member

    Location:
    Easter Island
  13. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    I’m even more impressed after seeing this. Can we get Panasonic to start manufacturing vinyl records in clean rooms?
     
  14. He needs to wear a white glove if he's going to be touching all the parts and components while touring the factory.
     
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  15. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Not that different than those Rega, Pro-Ject and VPI tours.:rolleyes:
     
  16. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    two questions-
    do these new tables come with decent alignment gauges?
    how does the sound of the G compare with the GR?
    thanks.
     
  17. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    It comes with a tool to set the overhang. The alignment is set by the S-shaped arm.

    I haven’t compared the G to the GR, but the GR is very very good.
     
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  18. oregonalex

    oregonalex Well-Known Member

    Be aware that third party headshells (at least the Ortofon and Nagaoka headshells I have examined) differ from the stock Technics headshell in the vertical angle between the bayonet mount axis and the mounting surface for the cartridge. It has two ramifications when using such third party headshells:

    A. The recommended tonearm VTA adjustments for the various cartridge heights given in the Technics manual will not apply and visual VTA alignment is necessary. This has a silver lining in that certain low cartridges may not require spacers.

    B. Using the Technics overhang gauge will introduce a small overhang error. Using a standard protractor may be preferable.

    Of course, if only using the stock headshells, then the overhang gauge and the VTA step table work fine.
     
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  19. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    A: This is the opposite of what I've experienced when using Ortofon headshells (SH-4). On my MK2 I have to bottom out the VTA with the Ortofon HS whereas with the Technics HS my VTA would be about 4. I have a 1200G coming and I anticipate using headshell shims with the Ortofon HS. If anyone knows of a nice HS that holds the cart lower than the Technics HS, please share. :)

    B: I don't see why there would be an error unless the tonearm isn't level in both cases. I use a 90 degree card to ensure that the needle is lined up with the gage when using the ortofon HS since it holds the cart so much higher than the Technics HS and it's hard to "eyeball."
     
  20. oregonalex

    oregonalex Well-Known Member

    This is hard to visualize and I may have it backwards, but humor me: On the picture below both are the same cartridges, left in Nagaoka, right in Technics headshell. Assume the tonearm VTA height setting the same. Now imagine lowering each headshell on the record. With the Nagaoka, the sharper angle of the headshell will cause the tonearm to fall lower than with the Technics headshell and the actual VTA of the cantilever will be smaller. To get it to be the same, you will have to raise the VTA setting of the tonearm. Pretend your arm is a tonearm, your outstretched hand is a headshell and simulate each case. I am not 100% sure I am right, but pretty sure.

    With the Nagaoka headshell the tonearm bayonet will drop lower and for the same actual cantilever VTA the arm tube will be at sharper angle to the record surface than with the Technics headshell. This will make the effective length shorter given both cartridges are aligned the same in their respective headshells using the gauge.

    [​IMG]

    Ortofon SH-4 has the same angle as the Nagaoka AFAICT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  21. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    The picture on the left will require a lower VTA to keep the tonearm level than that on the right. The only way to close the gap is to lower VTA. If the VTA is set so that the right hand picture has the tonearm level than the arm will slope downward towards the record with the left-hand setup. Lowering the VTA ring will level the arm in that case. This is the exact situation I have with my HSs and MK2 using different Ortofon carts with the same geometry. When I swap HSs (and carts) between my Technics HS and Ortofon HS I have to lower VTA for the Ortofon HS.

    Is that what you are saying or the opposite?

    Edit: Am I causing confusion by misusing the term VTA? I don't mean to change the VTA. What I mean when I use the term is the tonearm adjustment ring to raise and lower the tonearm. Sorry if I confused. o_O
     
  22. oregonalex

    oregonalex Well-Known Member

    I think we need to establish terminology to be able to make sense of it:

    VTA = Vertical Tracking Angle = the angle between the cartridge cantilever and the surface of the record. In an ideal case, you achieve the manufacturer recommended VTA when the mounting surface (top) of the cartridge is parallel to the record.

    VTA adjustment can be achieved by:
    • Turning the tonearm VTA adjustment ring to raise and lower the tonearm or
    • Adding/removing cartridge spacers or
    • Using a headshell with a different bayonet axis to mounting surface angle
    If the headshell's cartridge-mounting surface (bottom) is in line with the axis of the bayonet mount (as is the case with the Technics headshell) then the tonearm tube will be parallel to the record surface when the VTA is set right. If, however, the cartridge mounting surface of the headshell is angled (Ortofon, Nagaoka), then the tonearm tube will not be parallel to the record when the cartridge mounting surface is.

    So you are not trying to level the tonearm tube, rather you want the cartridge top to be level. It just so happens that with the Technics headshell, the tonearm tube will also be level in that case.

    Of course, if you want to be really precise about this, you actually want to measure the angle of the cantilever to the record or, better yet, the surface raking angle (SRA) of the stylus itself. But let's keep to the simplified case: Level cartridge top equals correct VTA.

    Making sense so far?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  23. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    "If, however, the cartridge mounting surface of the headshell is angled (Ortofon, Nagaoka), then the tonearm tube will not be parallel to the record when the cartridge mounting surface is."

    I agree with everything you said in your last post. However, if my SH-4 headshells are not parallel to my arm when mounted, it's not enough to "put in your eye," as my late father would say. I remember seeing posts saying headshells were off axis but I wasn't aware that that was a general thing. Are these headshells designed this way? As I said, mine don't seem to be. BTW, the only reason I'm not using the Technics HS in general is that my Ortofon carts have a nub on top for Azimuth adjustment and the Technics' HS has a hollowed out area where the nub is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  24. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    I'm with AArchie all the way on this. It's inconceivable that a correctly mounted headshell would deliver a cartridge top that wasn't parallel with the tonearm unless it was very seriously defective in manufacture. I can check my Ortofon headshell again but I'm pretty sure it's not defective, so we're left with a situation where the Ortofon holds the cartridge further away from the record surface than the stock Technics, leaving a bigger gap to be filled. (As shown in oregonalex's splendid pictures.) If you're using a shallow cartrisge like the AT33PTG/II (16mm), you need spacers even when using the stock Technics headshell and the Ortofon headshell makes matters much worse, in my experience.
     
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  25. oregonalex

    oregonalex Well-Known Member

    You guys may be right. If you look at my picture above, you can see the distance between the stylus tip and the gauge is about 50% larger with the Nag than with the Technics. It could be either because of the thickness of the headshell or the angle - I really don't know how to measure it precisely. It *LOOKS* more angled to me, but eyeballing it is difficult. But if it is as you say, that would be good news. That would mean the overhang gauge is always correct (we don't need no stinking protractors :)).

    As for the VTA, I actually do measure the cantilever angle with a microscope, so I don't care either way. EDIT: Actually, I do care. That means any cartridge less than ~21mm tall would need a spacer in these 3rd party headshells. Nuts. The stock headshell works fine. Too bad the new ones with the gold clips are so pricey.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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