Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by englishbob, May 27, 2014.

  1. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    Gabe,

    I took a closer look at my adjustment and it is a NET 2 3/4ths on the tonearm ring scale. So, about 3mm difference between the Technics and Ortofon SH-4 headshells.
     
  2. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    This is my first time with both removable head shells and adjustable VTA, so forgive me for being a little dense on this. I've got an Ortofon 2M Blue on the stock Technics head shell. The cartridge is 18mm, so the Technics manual says to set the arm ring at 1. When I measure the distance between turntable mat to stylus tip with the arm rest in the up position, I get approx. 1.3cm.

    I've also got an Ortofon 2M Mono on an Ortofon SH-4 head shell. Again, the cartridge is 18mm, but the head shell is clearly different. When I measure the distance from turntable mat to stylus tip with this head shell, I get approx. 1.8cm. So, an overall difference of about 0.5cm higher.

    Does this mean that when I listen to the Mono cartridge with Ortofon head shell, I should lower the arm height from 1 to 0.5?
     
  3. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    A couple pages back there was discussion about the tonearm wire used in the 1200GR. KAB had said that it was the same "tin-plated" wire used in the 1200MK2. I sent the following inquiry to Technics Support:

    Dear Sirs,

    I am considering purchasing your 1200G and I have a question regarding the wire used in the tonearm. I have read that the 1200GR tonearm is using the same Tin-Plated Copper Wire that was originally used in the 1200MK2 series. Is this the same wire now used in the 1200G tonearm? If not, what are you using in the 1200G?

    Thank you very much



    I just received the following reply:


    Hello,

    Sorry for the delay on my response. We have a confirmation from the factory that the newer 1200G turntable tone arm used the same Tin -Plated Copper wire that 1200MK model used.


    Thank You


    Technics Technical Support
    Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company
    Division of Panasonic Corporation of North America
    661 Independence Parkway
    Chesapeake, VA 23320


    F 1-800-348-7315

    EMAIL: TechnicsSupport@us.panasonic.com
    WEBSITE: www.technics.com
    TECHNICS DEALERS: Where to Buy | Technics US



    Not what I expected. Based on the positive reviews of the 1200GAE/G and GR, that wire doesn't seem to be a problem. I never got to hear my MK2 before the tonearm was rewired by KAB with Cardas so I can't say what difference that made in my case.
     
    snorker and Robert C like this.
  4. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Glad that we can put the wiring criticism to bed :)
     
    snorker likes this.
  5. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    Is your tonearm "leveled" in both cases? My numbers are based on leveling of the tonearm with each headshell. I discovered this when I was swapping carts and headshells and noticed that when I was set up for the Technics HS but using the Ortofon, my tonearm was sloping down when the needle was on the record. By lowering the tonearm 2 3/4ths on the scale with the Ortofon I was able to level out the tonearm. I have a sheet with the relative weight and height I need for each cart/HS I use so I can swap quickly without going through a lot of re-setup. I use the Ortofon as my starting point and adjust for the Technics by adding wt and height.
     
  6. I wonder if something was lost in translation between the factory in Japan and the folks in Virginia...if that's true it's rather odd. Why bother with an expensive magnesium arm tube and use the same wiring? The old M5G used all copper wiring, and Kevin at KAB expected the GAE/G used the same all copper wire.
     
  7. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    If they use the old wire, hopefully they based the decision on listening tests to "voice" the TT.
     
  8. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Yes, but You are sort of presuming one is better than the other. I wouldnt do that.
     
    snorker likes this.
  9. I doubt that. I think it's more likely they didn't understand the question, but it could just be they cheaped-out on the wire. Why they would do that when going to all the trouble to change all the other things, like the motor, the platter, the plinth and the magnesium arm tube is beyond me...

    EDIT: I've made an incorrect assumption here I think...tin-plated copper is more expensive. I'm not sure why KAB doesn't like it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:56 PM
  10. KAB definitely thinks so...of course he makes a living re-wiring tonearms. Even Technics must've believed the all copper wiring was better at some point, hence its inclusion on the "improved" M5G models.

    EDIT: You may be right...I'm completely ignorant, but there's some information out there on the inter-web suggesting tin-plated copper wire is more expensive and has several advantages over pure copper:

    By coating bare copper with a metal alloy, like tin, you can strengthen the copper’s natural properties, which will give it a longer shelf life. Also, tinned copper is easier to connect because tin is a primary component in solder. Tinned copper is better equipped to resist humidity, high temperatures and wet environments.
    Also this:

    Tin is a useful plating for copper because it not only helps to boost copper’s properties, it also helps the wire to last much longer than it would normally. In fact, a 12 gauge tin coated copper wire can last up to ten times longer than a similar 12 gauge bare copper wire.

    As tin resists corrosion and doesn’t oxidize the plating helps to protect the copper underneath. This wards off additional wear and tear that would detract years off the life of a bare copper cable. This is especially so in instances where the operating temperatures of the wire exceed 100 degrees Celsius. At higher temperatures, the corrosion resistance of copper declines, making a tin coating valuable for protecting the wire in this state. It is also highly desirable for any marine electronics, and tinned copper is infamous for its uses in marine technologies.

    Tinned wires are also desirable for soldering as they make connections and soldering an easy task given tin is a primary component in solder. Tin also helps to strengthen the copper wire underneath, making it more resilient to breakage or lost connections while also boosting coppers conductivity.

    So while tinned copper wire is more expensive than bare copper wire, it is often considered to be a much more prudent expenditure in the long run. Given that simple tin plating can drastically increase the life of copper, as well as ensure its effectiveness in high humidity areas, it pays for itself with strong performance and a lot less maintenance.​
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017 at 1:54 PM
    recstar24 likes this.
  11. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Or get a thicker mat.

    I bit the bullet and sold the two SH-4 headshells I was going to use and picked up an extra Technics headshell. Now all I have to do is adjust the tracking force between the 2M Bronze and the Mono.
     
    oregonalex likes this.
  12. Chris Treece

    Chris Treece Member

    Location:
    Haworth, UK
    It's here! No time tonight, so setup will have to wait. Interesting purchasing experience; saw a 1210 on eBay for £1080 from a dealer - brand new in box, but lid was cracked at one corner. I could live with that for the price, I thought, so ordered it on Friday. Got dispatch notification on Saturday morning. Then a message from the dealer via eBay on Monday morning to apologise, but that unit had already been sold. Yes, I replied, to me - I bought it on eBay. No response to that, just another reply, offering me a brand new, sealed unit for an extra £25. I phoned and paid them the £25 and a new unit was dispatched. Ten minutes later, the original unit, with cracked lid, went back on sale on eBay! They'd realised I had, in fact, bought the first unit but honoured their offer. Brand new 1210 arrived this evening - £1105 delivered, in the end, so happy camper here
     
    APH, wgb113, LarryP and 5 others like this.
  13. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    Did I miss this information somewhere? This is a black topped GR? That is a great price!
     
  14. Chris Treece

    Chris Treece Member

    Location:
    Haworth, UK
    The new unit with the cracked lid is still on eBay for £1080. UK authorised dealer, two year warranty. Surprised no-one had bought it before I did. Or didn't, if you see what I mean.....
     
  15. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    I looked but couldn't find it without more information.
     
  16. Chris Treece

    Chris Treece Member

    Location:
    Haworth, UK
    Not difficult! Search eBay U.K. site for SL1210GR - only three results; a new one at RRP, a (briefly) used one for £1150 and the new-with-a-cracked-lid for £1080 from HiFi Corner, Edinburgh.
     
  17. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    That's odd, I'm on the UK eBay and I only get the used (£1150) one coming up. I wonder if eBay has some kind of location filters? It doesn't really matter. You got a great deal nonetheless! :)
     
  18. Chris Treece

    Chris Treece Member

    Location:
    Haworth, UK
    Technics SL-1210GR (Black) Turntable - B Grade | eBay
     
  19. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    PhilBiker likes this.
  20. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    I got my 1200G today and I have a few things to share.

    First, it is built like a tank and has a real custom made feel as opposed to the (slightly) more mass produced feel of my MK2. The platter is amazing and I don't know if it's the mass alone but it freewheels far better than the MK2. The brass top makes it a thing of beauty.

    As discussed at length in this forum, setup with an Ortofon SH-4 headshell is problematic. Whereas with the MK2, I could bottom out the tonearm to attain a level arm, with the G I still need to go 3/16th inches lower! I'm using my MK2 thick mat right now but I'm still 1/16" high and with barely any free spindle left, a record clamp might not be an option. I'll make some shims at some point but 3/16" is a tall shim.

    The biggest surprise -- and not a happy one, was that this tonearm has a wicked resonance. I was playing around with grounds with my gains at maximum and I found a ringing that I was able to isolate as tonearm resonance. With the needle down on a static record, just talking would set off a tone that I'd estimate between 500 and 1000 Hz (don't quote me on this frequency). I don't see how this hasn't come up before unless no one was doing testing with such extreme gain. It must color the midrange? I was able to eliminate this resonance by applying heat shrink to the tube. When KAB gets his fluid damping figured out for this arm that might help with this too.

    One more curiosity is that with the G, grounding the TT to my phono stage makes no difference. This is a first for me since my other TTs needed the ground to quiet a 60 Hz hum. The G doesn't seem to produce this hum in the first place.

    I will be listening over time to evaluate the sound of the G versus my KAB modified MK2, but so far it does not trounce it at all; it might be a slight improvement. I'm not good at critical listening so I'm not a very good judge. Nevertheless, the sound I'm getting is fantastic. The reason for my moving to the G was mostly the nagging feeling that I hadn't done all I could do on the front end to do justice to my downstream components. At least I've put that doubt to rest (for now). I'll consider KAB's fluid damping once it's available but I am also wondering if that doesn't somehow hurt the responsiveness of the tonearm.

    TAFN :)
     
  21. recstar24

    recstar24 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    @AArchie Thanks for your comments! I have the 1200GR and I can definitely say my ground works perfectly, as in when its connected you get a noticeable reduction in hum/buzz then without (connected to a Hagerman Bugle 2). Can't say I've noticed a tonearm resonance like you have but that may simple be that my gain isn't high enough to bring out such things.
     
  22. Davey

    Davey very clever with maracas

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    We talked about what looked like a couple resonances earlier in the thread, one around 250Hz, but didn't look too wicked in the plots ... Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*
     
  23. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    The arm does look more level with the Ortofon head shell when I drop the arm height ring to zero.
     
  24. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    What I did wasn't nearly as sophisticated. I had the needle down and gain at maximum and I tapped around the TT and tonearm lightly. I also made noises like talking and clapping. What I got was a resonant ring that I'm pretty sure was higher than 250 Hz. That ring could also go into feedback with an increasing (runaway) volume. Putting heatshrink on the tube completely eliminated this -- likely by damping the arm. It's not surprising that an arm would show resonance somewhere in the audible range (KAB sell his tonearm inner rubber tubing just for this). I'm just surprised that no one else has experienced it with this arm. I do some "radical" sound tests with my equipment since I stress vibration isolation and it takes high volume to find it (lacking testing equipment). I'm not ruling out some arm/cart synergy either.
     
  25. AArchie

    AArchie Active Member

    Location:
    Colorado
    My ungrounded (or grounded) G sounds the same as my grounded MK2. Ungrounded, the MK2 had the typical 60 Hz hum on top of any other equipment hum/noise. When I listen for hum I have my gain way up so slight differences are apparent. Right now I can hear when the G's power switch is turned on. At normal listening levels this isn't apparent. I'm going to try shifting some cables to see if I can eliminate it anyway.
     

Share This Page