Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU Turntable Speed Controller

It would be nice if you addressed some of the issues I pointed out in my reply to you. Do you believe that all those who hear an improvement via speed stability (customers and designers alike) are fooling themselves? Is it, in your opinion, just another idiotic belief carried on by audiophiles without any sonic merit whatsoever? Similar to the "all amplifiers sound the same" crowd if they put out the same watts per channel?

I really do want to know what you have experienced with your findings. Not just your opinion on what you "think," but on what you actually heard in comparing the sound of a table with and without the accurate speed control.

 

With my table, a Basis Debut vacuum, the addition of a Basis Synchro power supply had, at most, a quite subtle effect on the sound. There is no way for me to make any sort of repeated trials with the power supply in the system and with it out (much less a blind trial) because the motor has to be rewired to work with the Synchro (because it is a dual phase supply). Hence, while I think there has been an improvement, I do have my doubts that I could reliably distinguish in and out of the system if I were to conduct a trial. Still, that is the nature of making upgrades to a high end system. Often the obvious improvements are a matter of the accretion of many small incremental changes and improvements.

Of course, there is also the convenience of electrically switching between speeds that comes with having a power supply instead of having to move the belt (although belt moving is easy on the Debut).

 

The Phoenix manual says 5W, so isn't it the responsibility of a potential customer to ensure compatibility? A call or email to either Phoenix or VPI could clear up any questions.

 

Hi all, the Phoenix was originally matched with the Scout turntable which uses a 600RPM motor. Problem comes in with the 300RPM motors which are on Scoutmaster 2s, Classic 3s, TNTs (I think... I was in middle school when that table was being made so I'm not 100% sure ), and tables that have been upgraded using out 300RPM upgrade kit. So if you have a standard Scout you're in great shape.

 

Thanks Mat!

 

I have not indicated that I have this Falcon. I have been trying to point out how these speed related matters should be measured, and what is what in these measurements.
Addressing possible guessed problems is not what I would do. I would measure to see if there is a problem, in the way I have desribed, and then look into how this problem should best be addressed, if there is an audible problem.
This could mean changing the TT or other things, but I would not try to address a problem without knowing how it should be done, and that it will work.
I will believe a speed related problem when I see measurements that´s done in a proper way (DIN/IEC), just like I would see measurements of the 'fixed' problems.

 

I'm attempting to understand your measurement issue. We both know that correct speed can be measured. The Roadrunner shows that. If I understand you correctly, you want to see measurements that directly correlate speed stability with audible differences. I guess I need you to explain that further. Forgive me as I am not an engineer. I thought your original argument was that any decent turntable should already be running at a perfect speed or it is not well designed. I'm assuming now that you are also questioning as to whether small changes in spot-on speed stability can be detected by the human ear. From my own personal experience in relationship to measurements, I have discovered that measurements, good or bad, don't always indicate how the product in question will actually sound. Please explain your thoughts in more detail. Thank you.

 

Mat, I must say that it is mighty nice of you to respond about a competitor's product. I have a lot of respect for you for doing that. Mat, do you think that VPI will ever revise and upgrade the SDS so that it can be a little more affordable, and like the Roadrunner, be able to constantly monitor and correct for speed variations? Also, please share your thoughts on why you believe that outboard speed controllers like SDS make an improvement to the sound. In addition, others have stated that with such high quality tables like VPI produces, why doesn't the standard motor already precisely deliver the exact speed? Thank you.

 

Yes, I still believe that a TT should be a TT. That means if we pay a quite substantial amount of money, it should in fact run at such a speed that an improvement is not audible. As for the other questions/arguments You have, read my posts, my thoughts are there.

 

So what's the substantial amount of money one must pay to get a turntable where speed issues no longer exist?

 

I did not say that one has to pay a substantial amount of money.

 

One possible source of confusion: AC synchmotors are exactly synchronized to the driving frequency. The platter on a belt drive table however, is not. There are many variables that can affect the speed, i.e. belt tension, slippage, creepage, twisting, bearing oil viscosity, etc. This is why VPI machines their pulleys with a very slight taper so you can move the belt to try to adjust the speed. On tables with a SAMA, moving the motor assembly closer or farther changes the belt tension and also has a significant effect on speed. This has nothing to do with the build quality of the table, it is just inherent in this type of drive. That is why there is a need for strobe discs or a tachometer: to accurately set the speed.

 

Aren't upgrades in high end audio always about the law of diminishing returns? There is no debate that the VPI tables (all of them) start off out of the box with terrific performance. If you watch my video, you see in the first test that the standard motor with an old belt and no SDS or Falcon stays very consistantly (once the band is on the correct spindle) around 33.3. There is nothing for VPI to be ashamed of there.

AC power speed controllers I would put into the catagory of tweaks. There are tweaks, though, and there are tweaks. For those that want to (marginally) improve on the performance of their VPI table without buying another table, you can add a different motor, different feet, different tonearms, a different platter - all ranging from $$$ to $$$$ in cost. I'm sure they all make some sort of impact on the quality of sound. Having a stable supply of power to this type of motor, though, really seems to improve the overall listening experience. Everything just sounds consistently good. People swear by their VPI SDS units, and people also seem to like their Falcons.

 

That's exactly what you said! And you still didn't answer the question. What is the price that it costs in order to have the required level of stability that is not audible?

 

No, I didn´t say that. I said if we pay a substantial amount of money the TT should be good enough.
But to answer your question, this level is reached in several direct drive TTs without any problems.

 

I'm not sure if the Falcon was intended to "compete" directly with any particular one of the well-known speedboxes; I like it because it's small, unobtrusive, affordable, convenient, accurate, simple, compatible with my TT motor and its plug, user adjustable in small increments, and turn-off-able, so it serves all my needs. I haven't seen any other unit that combines all those features (except for the stock speed controller that came with my Acoustic Solid 'table). That doesn't mean it's suitable for everybody or that it's objectively better than the VPI SDS, Walker controller, Wave Mechanic, Pro-Ject/Music Hall speedboxes, etc.

The Roadrunner tach. isn't compatible with my turntable because there's not sufficient clearance between the platter and plinth on a Nottingham Space 294, but that's not Phoenix's problem. It's just par for the course. Nobody can make an accessory that works with every other piece of equipment, and no manufacturer can reasonably be expected to provide a list of every component their product is/isn't suitable for. "This amp is too powerful for the following 1700 speaker models." "This phono stage is compatible only with these 20 MM cartridges and these 12 tonearm cables." It would be sort of hilarious if CD/digital player companies and amplifier manufacturers had to tell consumers that most players have output voltage 10+ times too hot for the line inputs of many preamps and integrated amps.

 

I can see some of your logic. However, in the case of compatibility with VPI, since Phoenix designed the Falcon with VPI in mind, one would assume that it would cover all motors. Wrong on my part. In my opinion, it would be a wise business move for them to address this power issue as it appears that there may be many potential customers with 7 watt motors who will spend their money on other speed devices if Phoenix doesn't meet their needs. And, by the way, since it was designed with the VPI Scout in mind, they certainly were competing with VPI's SDS.

 

My friend with an Aries just got the Phoenix and had a 300rpm motor and realized the above is true. I have a scout with a 600rpm motor. We traded. I got an upgrade and he got a motor that works better with the speed control. Win/win!

 

I came up with a better solution over the weekend. I ordered 12 of these heatsinks http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...ive_-_27mm_x_27mm_x_5mm_-_Anodized_Black.html and stuck them to the outside of the Falcon (six on top and three on each side). Works very very well and adds only 10mm to the width and 5mm to the height of the Falcon. My Scoutmaster 2 motor is 7W and therefore slightly over the specification, however, I feel pretty confident that it should continue to run without issue going forward. I will post a pic or two when I get home tonight.

 

Tweaking the tweak?

I would think that the small surface area of the Phoenix box would make heat sinks stuck to the outside negligible. Might a more effective solution be to create vent holes in the cover?

 

Following up on my own post, I removed the motor from the base, and my VPI 600 rpm motor is clearly marked by Hurst as a 5.5W motor - fine for the Phoenix Falcon, according to the mfgr.

 

I just read on another blog that the mfr is looking to source a 5W 300 RPM motor that will be a drop in replacement for the Hurst motor used on many of these tables. Depending on the cost, could be an interesting solution.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vend...e-tachometer-dds-based-psu-8.html#post4020129

 

There is apparently a minimum special order from Hurst of 25 pcs. I'd be interested.

 

So to be clear the Classic 2, which is listed on the @vpiindustries website as having the 600rpm motor, is totally compatible with the Phoenix? @phoenixengr?

Thanks!

 

It's getting more difficult to say with any certainty. The newer Classics are shipped with an internal regenerative PSU that runs from an external 48VDC supply, which would be incompatible. I just had someone e-mail with an older HW-19 with 600 RPM motor, which from all experience should have been OK. His Falcon PSU ran it, but got extremely hot. I had him open up the table and look at the label on the motor and is was 10W.

My best advice: If there is any question whether the motor is compatible with the Falcon PSU, look at the label on the motor. The Falcon is rated for 5W at 115VAC. If the motor or table doesn't plug directly into the mains wall socket, then it would be best to contact the dealer and ask about it, if you can't determine if it has a built in PSU.

At Drew769: Hurst has a minimum of 250 pcs for first time special orders; after that it is 25 pcs.

I may have found a direct source for an equivalent motor. 5W, 115V, footprint compatible with the Hurst, but it has a ¼" shaft instead of 3/16". May be able to spec the 3/16" shaft, but I'm waiting to hear back. If not, then I will also source a new pulley with a 0.250" center bore (even with a 3/16" shaft we will offer a pulley as well, for those that haven't moved to 300 RPM as of yet). I expect the whole kit to be $75-$100.