Pink Floyd The Wall, my shoot-out

I'm really interested in the outcome of this discussion. I have the black-faced Japanese Harvest version with the really low peak levels (CDP 7 46036 8), and I think it sounds very nice...as far as I remember, didn't the other Harvest version have approximately twice the peak levels, which suggests that it is derived from the same mastering with higher volume? I would love to compare samples from the different versions. Maybe somebody could share a sample from the UK or the WG Harvest disc?

 

I'm doing it in Pro Tools ands I only get a reading in decibels, not percentages. Sorry.

CD case spine: CDS 7 46036 8

CD 1 Inner ring: CDP 746037 2 4:3:40 EMI Swindon

CD 2 Inner ring: CDP 746036 2 4 EMI Swindon

Here's the peaks on Disc 2 of my Harvest CD:

1. -4 (Hey You)
2. -5.4
3. -9.3
4. -10.4
5. -0.1
6. -3.6
7. -5.9
8. -3.7
9. -2.0
10. -4.0
11. -3.2
12. -5.8
13. -19.8

 

Are you sure you didn't confuse the matrix numbers of disc 1 and disc 2?
It loooks like a normalized version of the black-faced Japanese Harvest, which has the following disc 2 peak levels:
Track 1 42.4 %
Track 2 36.5 %
Track 3 23.2 %
Track 4 20.3 %
Track 5 66.4 %
Track 6 44.6 %
Track 7 35.2 %
Track 8 45.4 %
Track 9 55.0 %
Track 10 43.5 %
Track 11 47.9 %
Track 12 35.6 %
Track 13 7.0 %

 

No, I saw it was odd and checked them twice.

 

Looks like a msiprint to me. My Japanese Harvest has:
Disc 1: CDP 7 46036 2 3A1 TO
Disc 2: CDP 7 46037 2 8B2 TO

 

My Harvest Japan Black Face is;
Disc 1: CDP 7-46036 2 1B2
Disc 2: CDP 7 46037 2 7B6

Mine doesn't have "TO" in the matrix....here we go again...

 

Oh boy, no we even have to deal with TO and non-TO versions, where is this going to end?

Roland

 

What is the level of 42.4% in dB?
What is the level of -4dB in %?

Somebody should know the math on top of their head.

Roland

 

Probably not of interest for most.


I don't know how Pro Tools works, but there are two possible formulas to calculate decibels from a ratio r of energies or powers, either
1) db = lg(r)/10 (i.e. 10 db equals 10 times more energy)
or
2) db = lg(r)/20 (i.e. 20 db equals 10 times more energy).

lg is the decimal logarithm. The first formula is much more common, but Jamie's values suggest that the second one was used.

Anyway, here is the list of my percentage values normalized to 98.9% compared to those of Jamie's disc using the inverse of formula 2).

63.2 -- 54.4 -- 34.6 -- 30.2 -- 98.9 -- 66.4 -- 52.4 -- 67.6 -- 81.9 -- 64.8 -- 71.3 -- 53.0 -- 10.4
63.1 -- 53.7 -- 34.3 -- 30.2 -- 98.9 -- 66.1 -- 50.7 -- 65.3 -- 79.4 -- 63.1 -- 69.2 -- 51.3 -- 10.2

Really close, although there are some rounding errors involved.

 

You know-I was just about following this thread.....until now

I am still keen to find out the results..as I have said before, the silver faced UK Harvest is a beautifully balanced and well mastered disc(s), probably one to show off ones Hi-Fi

 

I can't contribute much to this thread because I only have the C2K, but I can tell you that it definitely has pre-emphasis.

 

I just received a copy of the Japan black-faced Harvest (non-"TO") courtesy of a kind forum member. An initial comparison with my UK Harvest simply confirmed that the peak levels are lower on the Japan Harvest but, apart from that, appears to be the same mastering. When I cranked up the volume of the Japan Harvest it sounded just as wonderful as the UK Harvest. The question now: Is the "TO" version the same as the non-"TO"...

 

did we ever get any further with these comparisons?

 

Dave,

I have all three versions that you mentioned(altbough #2 is the US pressing and not the Canadian one), and I agree with you. The Japan Columbia version(which I just recently acquired)sounds amazing!

Evan

 

I am not sure, but maybe Andreas can help out with that. He does have sound samples of the WG and UK Harvest CD versions.

It appears that the UK version is based on the Japanese (for European market) version, but with double the peak levels except for a few instances where the doubled peak level would have gone above 100%. For these few instances, the UK seems to be limited to 100%.

The WG version stays in sync with the UK version (i.e. derived from the same original tape transfer), but the peak levels never reach 100%. Maybe it is also based on the Japanese CD vesion, but instead of doubling the peak levels, they were only multilpied by approx. 1.95.

It seems to me though that the UK and WG version sound slightly different. I haven't been able to put my finger down on what the difference actually is, nor did I reach a conclusion which one I might prefer. Both sound great to me.

Roland

 

Thank you for giving me some time pressure. ....
Give me a few days.

 

Ok, here are my findings:

The three Harvest releases (Japan, UK, WG) are all from the same initial mastering.

The Japanese is almost exactly half as loud as the others, and the UK and the WG aren't identical either. But when you normalize each of them, they pretty much cancel out except for some odd things like white noise at -85 db or one or two different samples.

My educated guess is that the Harvest Japan was the first of these, and the other two are based on the same digital master, but normalized independantly, so that some digital differences arose.

Details:

In The Flesh: Harvest UK = Harvest WG after normalization except two samples
The Thin Ice: Harvest Jpn = Harvest UK after normalization except white noise at -85 db
Hey You: Harvest UK = Harvest WG after normalization except white noise at -85 db
Hey You: Harvest Jpn = Harvest WG after normalization except one loud sample and white noise at -85 db for the remainder

 

Thanks Andreas-so is there a preferred mastering-one which you think has the best overall presentation?
And what do you think of the best version of these compared to the Canadian?

 

I'm very interested in this comparison to the Canadian C2K 36183 as well.

Also, not to add fuel to fire, but has it been definitively determined yet whether the C2K 36183 versions--those being the original U.S. Columbia, the U.S. Columbia "Reissue" (with DIDP code on the disc label), and the Canadian issue (all as seen here: http://www.pinkfloydcd.com/3WALLMAINPAGE.html)--are indeed the same? The threads that came up using the search function appear to be inconclusive on this question.

 

Hopefully I can help here...

The Canadian C2K mastering is the first mastering available to Canada originally released the same time as the original USA. The Canadian 2nd mastering, which sounds like a mid 80's digitally sourced mastering, fortunately is a different catalog number. My Canadian 1st pressing looks identical to this USA pressing with the old Columbia logo and matrix ring as opposed to the second re-issue pressing.

 

Andreas is postulating the Harvest Japan was the first Harvest mastering, and it's my favourite in a shootout with the C2K...and there's no click at the beginning of Comfortably Numb.

 

That is helpful. But then what is the disc in this picture: http://www.pinkfloydcd.com/WALL/CanadaC2K36183disc1.html ? Is that the 2nd mastering you speak of? Since, for what it's worth, that pinkfloydcd.com website only shows one version of The Wall attributable to Canada.

To your knowledge, is the mastering the same for the two discs you show and your Canadian first pressing?

 

There' some confusion about the scans on that website, because he lists them by country of mfg, not country of release.

Here's the sequential order of release by label for the intial masterings:

EMI-Harvest for Europe - 1st issue CDP 7 46035-2
Blackface - Made in Japan by Toshiba
Blackface - Made in W. Germany by Sonopress (alternate press runs also)
Silverface - Made in UK by EMI Swindon
Silverface - Made in Italy by EMI, but has Swindon matrix
Silverface - Made in Holland by EMI Uden; may use EMI Swindon matrix

The last three pressed CDs simultaneously for various markets. EMI will often send the glass masters to the various plants to be pressed, hence they have the same matrix, but different pressing plants.

CBS/Columbia for US - 1st issue C2K36183
Silverface - Made in Japan by CBS/Sony (CSR)
Silverface - Made in USA by Sony DADC
Silverface - Made in Japan by Nippon Columbia/Denon - had NO DIDP-10204 or DIDP-10205 in the matrix or label - pretty rare - but that's what's scanned on his website; this was an additional production run to the DADC CDs
Silverface - Made in USA by Sony DADC with barcode in matrix band
Silverface - Made in USA by Sony SDM Pitman - no DIDP # in matrix or label "CMU" in the plastic ring

Columbia uses both DADC and Pitman to make CDs, so you may get either one. Newer Pitman CDs look the same as DADC discs.

CBS/Columbia for Canada - C2K36183 - use unique Canadian inserts
Silverface - Made in USA by Sony DADC DIDP- number in matrix
Blackface - Made in Canada by Cinram disc 2 disques on front

MOFI -
Blackface - Made in Japan by Sanyo (Ultradisc)

I am not going to bother with the CBS/Sony for Japan CDs as they are hard to come by and likely DIDP clones.

 

Andreas, thanks for the comparison.

I agree with you on the account that the three different Harvest versions (Japan, WG, UK=Holland) come from the same original mastering.

It also seems very likely that the Japanese version with the low levels was the first mastering.

For the WG version, these levels were raised in a way that they never reach quite 100%.

The UK=Holland version has the levels raised that they reach 100% in a few places.

All these three versions are great in my opinion and beat the original Columbia mastering (for my liking anyway).

Just for overall volume level, I probably prefer the WG over the Japan version, but if you have to turn up the volume a little more on the Japan version, that could even have some positive effects on the sound quality (less volume "filtered" through your amp).

Roland