Please Help! Hearing Down 50dB at 8K Hz

Parametric EQ with a high Q

 

Yes. Again, the question is whether I would fry the electronics and/or tweeters if I could actually find a way to apply that much boost at those frequencies. I have 1 'yes/will fry' answer. I'm also looking for more specific suggestions of hardware that won't fry. One so far.

 

Klipsch is definitely a good speaker for deaf people. If your ears can't hear the music, your body will.

 

From what I've read about EQ no-one recommends large boosts, and certainly not to 40-50dB.

It might be an idea to find a test tone CD and play this to yourself through headphones to see if your hearing results are confirmed and whether each ear behaves the same. My hearing (at 64 years old) stops at 10kHz and I make no effort to recover this. What I do is adjust 3-5dB for 4-8kHz and that helps on my speaker system.

What I find is that headphones without any EQ still sound really good (I use Sennheiser HD800 with a good headphone amp). I can hear percussion on them that is less obvious in my listening chair but is still heard by listening close to the speakers. This suggests perhaps having the speakers in an arrangement that is closer to you may help.

You could also try putting your hands behind your ears, or cupping your ears, to see what difference that makes.

 

Have you tried using headphones and experimenting with EQ on a phone or computer first to get a feel for what improves things for you?

Plenty of playback apps have EQ built in and using it needn't cost anything / much. Examples: Onkyo HF Player on iOS has a decent EQ on it as does Decibel on the Mac. I found that a gentle lift in the affected frequencies of only about 3dB made e.g. cymbals and the cash tinkling in Money sound clear once again at modest listening levels. Trying to completely correct the hearing deficit in my audiogram was completely impossible to listen to for me; way too much treble, harsh, even painful. Your brain is the best DSP system out there and will already be trying to compensate for your hearing loss; one consequence of that is that you may be more sensitive to excessive volumes in the affected frequencies.

 

My friend...please go talk to your audiologist about all this. Everyone here would simply be guessing. Many of them will set up a trial period for hearing aids suited to you.

 

Again, this is a hardware question, in which I am asking if an amp and tweeters can handle this much boost. But, that being said, I have started looking into hearing aids.

So, now that you know I am only talking about boosting frequencies above 2 kHz, what would be the additional power requirements?

 

Then the answer is no, the tweeters cannot handle this.

 

I appreciate this. I don't have headphones, but there ARE some other things I can try without trying to do complete correction, as you recommend. For example, the high end Marantz AVR in our living room has a 9 band room correction. Each band can go -20 to +6. It has a band at 4 kHz, 8 kHz, and 16 kHz. So, I could set the lower 6 bands to -20 db, and boost the highest 3. But the question is still whether I would hurt the amp or tweeters (in this case, Monitor Audio Bronze BX2) by setting 4kHz, 8 kHz, and 16 kHz up to 26 db higher.

 

I appreciate this. Thanks. Can others confirm this? What about the amp?

 

Roll off above 8khz is normal in your (our) age group. The result is a loss of air, but the music is still very enjoyable.

 

I called a manufacturer. They claimed that all frequencies would be rebroadcasted using the tiny speaker in the hearing aid. The frequencies I hear normally would still be picked up by the mic, pass through the equalizer and amp in the hearing aid unamplified, and then sent to the tiny speaker. This was not one of the designers I spoke with.

 

Tweeters blow from either too much power, or from amplifier clipping. A few dB of high frequency gain from equalization is nothing to worry about, as long as the amp doesn't clip.

 

Here's my update on my quest to hear the bells in "Sailing" again. Remember that I am only trying to boost frequencies at and above 4 kHz.

Several comments were made by folks saying that they were happy by boosting the highs less than what an audiogram called for. I verified this for my own tastes. Folks on this thread also suggested that I could possibly damage my tweeters if I boosted too much. So, I set the equalizer on my AVR to flat, and turned it up as loud as I dared. Then I knocked everything 2kHz and below down 20 db. Of course, at this point, the music was pretty quiet. As I got closer to the speakers, it was very nice...almost emotional. There were the bells, just as I remembered.

I didn't dare turn it up, for fear of blowing the tweeters.

I found I chart showing power requirements as a function of frequencies. I think it was showing that boosting these high frequencies puts much less load on an amp than boosting the bass. But I'm not sure, and I don't know how to quantify this.

Since I've proven to myself that I really like the boost, and that it does sound like I remember music sounding, I think my best option is the headphone, headphone amp, parametric EQ route. I wouldn't have to worry about blowing tweeters. I have no idea how to find the hardware that can handle the boost I'm looking for (+20 dB at 4kHz and up).

None of my friends with hearing aids think that boosting only frequencies one has trouble hearing, will damage what is left. That is what hearing aids do.

I think headphones has to be a better option than hearing aids, dollar for dollar. I'm guessing that I would get superior amplification and driver as compared to those in a hearing aid.

Comments very, very, welcome.

 

Because of my high frequency hearing loss, I'm not sure that I would be able to recognize the onset of clipping or tweeter failure.

 

How close were you to the speakers when you heard the bell? Were they at a distance you could set them up?

With the 'loud as you dare' setting and everything 2kHz and below down 20dB, could you not now raise everything 2kHz and below up until the volume was acceptable to you, then see if you can still hear the bell? I would think raising the higher frequencies by say 8dB shouldn't fry a tweeter.

I suggest you contact your speaker manufacturer and ask them what boost you could reasonably make.

 

I don't know of a hardware equalizer capable of such boost, but on the computer realm, when reading any file or CD with VLC Media Player or BSplayer , the equalizer allows you to boost/cut any frequency up to 20 db, so if you connect any computer to your rig.....voilá !!

 

Lots of good info and discussion here.
Hearing protection is so much more evolved with industrial and "musician" quality earplugs, there's no excuse today to end up in your 60s with damaged hearing and tinnitus (like me).

The VA is paying millions for aids and monthly disability checks to vets (like my dad) who have service-connected hearing loss.

It's gradual, but one day the ringing in your ears from a concert doesn't fade away and you can't hear children and women as well.

To the OP, good for you for getting a hearing test.

I was in the same boat as you, but started having trouble catching some words.
The "banana curve" chart shows on the upper right the "fricative" f, s, and th sounds become difficult to distinguish where you (and I) are at.
I was driving my wife crazy making her repeat words.

I found a local audiologist who works with musicians.
I got fitted with quality open-air aids that only amplify high frequencies
They have a "music" setting that boosts the top even more.

It's been a life-changer for me, I got back significant detail in music that had faded away for me.
They were expensive, but fortunately my health insurance re-imbursed for most of the cost.

With headphones and in-ear monitors, I find +15 dB above 8 kHz restores enough of what I've lost to make listening enjoyable.
I'm no expert in psycho-acoustics, but no way in the world should you feel like you need to achieve a full +50 dB correction to hear your bells again.

Good luck in your journey.

 

Thanks -dave--wave-. Would you be interested in sharing results of your audiogram at 4 kHz and 8kHz? Can you find out how much boost your hearing aids apply at those frequencies?

 

Sure, why not share my medical records with a bunch of strangers on the internet?

If you read the report, my hearing was normal from 250-2000 Hz.
I scored excellent in both ears when they read me a list of words to repeat back.

I was advised I might not be a good candidate for hearing aids because my hearing wasn't bad enough yet.
Yeah, Mr Magoo doesn't need glasses, either.

Nope.
I can only tell you it's a life-changing improvement.

[UN-ASKED-FOR ADVICE]
Consult an audiologist with your questions.

Not some strip mall hearing aid dispenser.
A real medical practitioner with a PhD.
Mine works in a Ear, Nose, Throat practice.

Be prepared to spend in the mid-upper four figures for quality hearing aids.
Mine came with a free trial period.
[/UN-ASKED-FOR ADVICE]

 

I can't thank you enough! Your graph looks almost exactly like mine! I've had very bad luck with the 2 audiologists I went to. It's not that they weren't good or thorough. It's just that they couldn't understand why I was concerned about fixing it.

So, one of the questions that still remains is how much they boost the frequencies in which we have deficiencies. Can anyone else help? Do they try to boost it to match our midrange hearing abilities, or just bring it up part of the way? That would be a lot of boost.

The cost you mention is why I would like to explore the audiogram, parametric equalizer, headphone amp, headphone route. I'm guessing that I would get more bang for my buck? The disadvantage would be that I could only use the headphones when listening solo.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea that the amp and speaker in the hearing aid can handle a large amount of high frequency boost, but headphone amps and headphones may not be able to handle it.

 

Let's start again.
Perhaps even our esteemed audio engineer host may not be clear that the dB HL units in an audiogram are not equivalent to dB SPL that we all use in the audio world.
Apples and Oranges.

The original poster wants to restore his audiogram to a flat line like a speaker frequency response graph.
But the correction built into the HL units used in audiograms are on a curve.

To the OP:
The correction chart shows you already have 15 dB more high frequency hearing than you think you do.
You are understandably concerned about blowing out your ears and your tweeters.
But the difference in units is what's confusing the issue.

I'm listening right now with my damaged ears to XTC Skylarking.
Using a $60 Behringer 802 mixer to apply +15 dB of eq @ 12k, and it sounds awesome.

Keep experimenting and asking questions, the truth is out there.

________________________________________________________________________

Understanding the Difference Between Sound Pressure Level (SPL) and Hearing Level (HL) in Measuring Hearing Loss
by Neil Bauman, Ph.D.

A student asked,

What is the relationship between the SPL dB scale and HL dB scale?

Good question. I’ll bet there are lots of hard of hearing people that are unclear about the differences between those two scales, and often treat these two terms as though they are interchangeable and mean the same thing—if they even wonder about those acronyms on their audiograms.

When audiologists measure your hearing, they measure your hearing in units called decibels (dB). The catch is that there are several decibel scales. Thus, in order to be meaningful, your audiologist indicates which decibel scale she used. The two most commonly used scales are the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) and the HL (Hearing Level) scales.

Sound meters are calibrated in dB SPL. This makes total sense because the condenser microphones used in sound meters are sensitive to changes in sound pressure in the air, just as our ears are. In contrast, audiometers are calibrated in dB HL, not in dB SPL like you would think would be done. This begs the question, “Why not calibrate audiometers using the SPL scale and forget about the HL scale?”

Here’s the reason why. Our ears do not hear equally well at all frequencies. If our ears heard all frequencies of sound equally well, then we wouldn’t need the HL scale.

Our ears do not perceive low- and high-frequency sounds as well as they do sounds between 500 and 4,000 Hz. For example, the faintest sound a young person with normal hearing can hear at 2,500 Hz is 0 dB SPL. In contrast, at 20 Hz (a very low frequency sound), the sound needs to be much louder at 72 dB SPL in order to just faintly hear it. At the other end of the frequency spectrum, a very high-pitched sound at 15,000 Hz needs to be increased to 20 dB SPL in order for you to just detect it.

Thus, normal hearing, if plotted on an audiogram using the SPL scale, would be a curved, wavy line and look like the bottom line in Fig. 1. Since this line is both curved and somewhat wavy, it would be difficult to readily tell on an audiogram how much hearing loss a person has by frequency.

It would be ever so much easier to visualize the degree of hearing loss if normal hearing showed as a flat, straight line set at 0 dB on the audiogram. Then, any deviation from this line would indicate the degree of hearing loss.

This is the reason why they developed the HL scale. The curved SPL scale is normalized so that it becomes a flat, straight line at 0 dB. (We call this normalized SPL scale the HL scale.)

Using the HL scale, normal (“perfect”) hearing is a straight line across the top of an audiogram. When your audiologist tests you, any deviation from the 0 dB HL line indicates a hearing loss if it falls below the 0 dB line. (By the same token, if your hearing deviates above the 0 dB line, you have better than normal hearing at that frequency.)

To convert SPL readings to HL readings, audiometers are calibrated to add a specific amount to each frequency tested. This amount varies by frequency. For example, at 125 Hz, it adds 45 dB, while at 1,000 Hz it only adds 7 dB. Likewise, at 4,000 Hz it adds in 9.5 dB, while at 8,000 Hz it adds in 13 dB.

Here is the ANSI S3.6-1996 standard to convert dB SPL to dB HL.

Frequency
Hz dB SPL dB HL
125 45.0 0
250 27.0 0
500 13.5 0
750 9.0 0
1000 7.5 0
1500 7.5 0
2000 9.0 0
3000 11.5 0
4000 12.0 0
6000 16.0 0
8000 15.5 0

The result is that now your audiogram readily shows your hearing loss graphically in dB HL, rather than you trying to mentally visualize the degree of hearing loss if it were plotted in dB using the SPL scale.
___________________________________________________________

 

I was going to suggest something very similar - augmenting the high frequencies with a speaker / amp / crossover designed specifically for this purpose. I was thinking about those Radio Shack Super Tweeters from the 80's. There are some more modern versions that might be worth looking at. Using a separate amp, EQ and speaker system for the highs would keep your existing system intact with no worries about blowing anything up. Using a separate system would also allow you to blend them and EQ them independently.



Townshend Engineering Supertweeters

Audio Smile Super Tweeter

 

OK. A few things. First, I'm still hoping that some folks will be able to share the amount of boost in their hearing aids at different frequencies, compared to their deficiency measurements. For example, at 4 kHz my audiogram shows -xx dB but my hearing aid boosts yy dB at 4 kHz.

Next, you're not concerned with your tweeters at +15 dB?

Finally, the shape of the audiogram. If I'm reading correctly, things have been manipulated so that a person with perfect hearing would have a flat audiogram. Correct? Normal hearing would actually have an audiogram the shape of a Fletcher Munson curve if dB HL was not used, but that would be harder to interpret. So our hearing is still down 50 dB at 4 kHz as compared to a person with perfect hearing, but only about 30 dB down from what is considered normal.

 

Yes, because 30 dbs of loss at 4 khz is considered ¨mild hearing loss¨, not ¨ deep hearing loss¨ So most people our age are 30 down and continue hearing well.