[POLL] Robert Fripp - Exposure: Original v. Remix

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by bcaulf, Oct 18, 2014.

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  1. bcaulf

    bcaulf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Hi all. I'm looking at getting the two disc Exposure remaster by Robert Fripp. I've never heard this album before, but I know it has had quite a complicated release history. There's an original mix on this cd and also a slightly altered version of the '83 remix. I also see an early CD version with a longer version of the song "Water Music II" but I find that might not necessarily be essential, since it is otherwise the remix (albeit this single cd is cheaper than the two disc set).

    I know there have been a few threads about this album but I believe this may be the fist one with a poll, which in turn will help me decide which CD I should use for my first listening experience of this well-received album.

    So I would love to see people's decisions! Anybody who would like can also post comments below to further feed me with some information about the two different mixes (similarities and differences) as well as their opinions of the two. I also wonder why Fripp decided to remix the album in the first place? Was he trying to create a more commercial version of the album?

    Thanks to any contributors! :)
     
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  2. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I am no Fripp expert and frankly I've never carefully compared the two mixes to hear exactly what the differences are, but you need the two disc version for the additional Daryl Hall vocals. For me the main attraction on this album is the piano version of "Here Comes The Flood". It blows away the version Peter Gabriel released on his first solo album.
     
  3. bcaulf

    bcaulf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This is the one track I listened to for comparisons on YouTube. On the remix, there is only piano. On the original mix, there are Frippertronic guitar textures throughout parts of the song, which makes it more "Fripp" which is good since it IS a Fripp album, after all.
     
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  4. eeglug

    eeglug Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    There are frippertronics on the remix, just much more subtly deployed. I agree that either of the versions on Fripp's Exposure are better than Gabriel's own version on his first solo album. But I still really like that overblown version too.
     
  5. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    Gabriel must've preferred the subdued version, as he re-recorded it for his first compilation and it's always performed in that mode when done live. The overblown version was more of a reflection on Bob Ezrin's influence than anything else.
     
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  6. rednoise

    rednoise Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston
    Not always. On his first tour, he opened the show with the quiet version of "Here Comes the Flood" and ended the show with the loud one.
     
  7. jojopuppyfish

    jojopuppyfish Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    As an album its ironic he was forced to lose Daryl Hall on many of the songs as bringing in a new singer really improved the album.
    Finally hearing Daryll Hall's versions were very interesting too.
     
    audiotom likes this.
  8. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    In what 1977? A lot of water under the bridge.
     
  9. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient

    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Can't vote.

    Mostly like the original, but I prefer "Chicago" on the remix.

    BTW, the Third Edition on the remaster is not the 1983 remix. It restores Daryl Hall's vocals on three songs and uses the shorter Definitive Edition version of "Water Music II". I think the 1983 remix is the Second Edition.
     
  10. audiotom

    audiotom I can not hear a single sound as you scream

    Location:
    New Orleans La USA
    Peter Hammell's vocal performance is light years better than Daryl Hall's
    Suzy Roche as well
    The original is perfect
     
  11. eeglug

    eeglug Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    I've already expressed my opinion about this in another thread started by the OP. The remix separates the instruments a bit more, adds a bit of treble to everything and puts digital reverb on the vocals and drums. The remix just sounds more digital to me as a whole. From my point of view, some tracks (mostly the harder rocking ones) suffer more than others. In the end my overall preference is for the original mix.

    Note that the old Definitive Edition disc (now referred to as the Second Edition) has a lower DR than the First/Third 2 disc set if such things make a difference to you. The Second ed is DR13 and the First/Third are DR11.

    Here's my comparison between versions:

    Preface: mostly identical between versions, the remix cleans up the noisy spoken dialogue a bit
    Burn Me Up: the rhythm guitars are panned together to the left in the remix, their interaction creates a chorused effect, which is appropriate to the 80s vintage of the remix. Otherwise identical.
    Breathless: basically the same but the heavy reverb really softens and recesses the drums too much IMO. The original mix makes the drums hit you in the face which IMO is as it should be. The second repetition of the main riff is virtually a drum solo by Narada Michael Walden and you need that to be up front in the mix as it is in the original.
    Disengage: Peter Hammill was asked to improvise his vocal based on a written text and the original and remix use entirely different improvised takes. Whichever one you hear first will likely dictate what you think sounds 'right' to you.
    North Star: Daryl Hall's vocal has a tight small room ambience in the original, on the remix his vocal is in a bigger 'room'. The fill guitar accents are mixed slightly differently between the two versions.
    Chicago: The original backing track has far greater punch. Parts of Peter Hammill's vocal come from a noticeably different take.
    NY3: Again, much less punch on the remix. And you really need it on this sledgehammer track.
    Mary: Remix adds reverb to the vocal. Probably some slight differences in how the frippertronics are mixed.
    Exposure: Not much different between mixes other than the general remarks (reverb on drums, more treble, a bit more separation of parts). It's actually possible to do a 3 way comparison of this track by comparing them to the version on Peter Gabriel II, which has the same backing track but PG's lead vocal instead of Terre Roche. (Peter Gabriel II was produced by Fripp). Not surprisingly, the PGII mix more closely resembles the First Edition mix. (Sid McGinnis' rhythm guitar is panned left on Fripp's mixes but is centered on Gabriel's).
    Haaden Two: Not much different other than reverb drums on the remix.
    Urban Landscape: Identical between versions
    I May Not Have Had Enough: More prominent rhythm guitar on the original. Different mix of frippertronic elements. Again more impactful in the original mix. I think the vocals are the same takes.(?)
    First Inaugural Address: not much to this 7 second track to compare(!)
    Water Music I: Mostly identical but JG Bennett's voice sounds fuller in the remix
    Here Comes The Flood: original mix has a subtle delay effect on Gabriel's lead vocal; a different subtle reverb is on the remix. Different mix of frippertronics in each version, with the remix being unexpectedly more restrained in their use IMO. This might be the one and only instance where I might prefer the remix.
    Water Music II: a frippertronic track with different panning and levels of the various sounds. The remix seems noisier because one of the 'hissing' tracks is mixed higher. The original feels more 'ambient', rhapsodic and musical to me. The remix is shorter; 4:28 original vs 3:55 remix.
    Postscript: a tape collage bit which is pretty much the same in all versions.

    As to why he remixed the album, who knows? He also fiddled around with his God Save The Queen/Under Heavy Manners album as well as the League of Gentlemen album. I'm so happy now that I've done a needledrop of my old LoG album.

    One last comment about this album: when I listen to Daryl Hall singing here, I find his vocal timbre to be quite similar to Adrian Belew's, to the point where I can easily imagine Belew singing all of Hall's parts on Exposure. It makes me think that their vocal resemblance played a role in Fripp selecting him for the 80s Crimson. And maybe Daryl Hall could someday cover Frame By Frame or Neal And Jack And Me(?).
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2014
    audiotom, albertop, willy and 16 others like this.
  12. bcaulf

    bcaulf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This is great thank you. I think I do remember posting about this in another thread but I figured a poll would cement further opinions. From what I've gathered, it looks like the original mix is the proper first, dare I say, exposure to this album.
     
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  13. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient

    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Everything before the word "obscenities" is from a different take. The rest is from the same take.

    Oddly, the bonus track version on the remaster has the same vocal as the 1983 remix except for the word "obscenities" before Terre Roche sings the rest of the song!

    There's an organ on the original. It's missing on the remix.
     
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  14. LuLu Reed

    LuLu Reed Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Wine Country
    Original
     
  15. Rodney Toady

    Rodney Toady Waste of cyberspace

    Location:
    Finland
    Taken as a whole, I prefer the originally released version of Exposure. The remix is rather interesting and well worth hearing, but still I wouldn't want that to be my only exposure to this fine album.
     
  16. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    What about the "Second Edition", the real original 1983 mix?

    The "Third Edition" would be the reworked 1985 version of the 1983 mix.

    :faint:
     
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  17. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient

    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    This is the way I understand it:

    Original 1979 LP mix --> First edition
    1983 remix --> Second edition
    Definitive edition --> Edition 2.1 (Basically, Second Edition with a shorter "Water Music II".)
    2nd disc of 2006 remaster --> Third edition (Basically, Definitive Edition with "Disengage", "Chicago", and "NY3" replaced with Daryl Hall versions.)
     
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  18. eeglug

    eeglug Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    I think you're supposed to be able to recreate the Second Edition from the Third by replacing the Daryl Hall versions with the bonus tracks on that disc. I don't care enough to verify this and I already have the Definitive Edition anyway.
     
  19. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient

    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Okay. I've had a good night's sleep, so I've had the opportunity to read the entire post.

    That, and the last 50 seconds have been removed entirely.

    There are actually three versions of this:

    Original: 4:28
    1983 remix: 6:26
    Definitive Edition CD: 3:55

    The Third Edition just copies the Definitive Edition version.

    This reference page is pretty old, but it does a pretty good job at comparing the differences. It even includes the Network EP in some of its analysis.

    http://www.elephant-talk.com/exposure/expodiff.htm

    I'd like to hear that.

    That's what I thought when I first bought it. It doesn't work, though, because the long version of "Water Music II' isn't anywhere on the disc and "Chicago" is not the same.

    The case of "Chicago" is quite bizarre. The Second Edition has a cleaned up backing track and uses a different vocal take for the first part of the song. However, from the word "obscenties" forward, the vocal take is the same as the original.

    For the bonus track on the remaster, the word "obscenities" is sung differently, which suggests that it is the actual part of that take that was replaced with the original vocal take on the Second Edition (confused yet?), AND the rest of the bonus track is sung by Terre Roche, not Pete Hammill. So, the bonus track is not the same version as the Second Edition.

    YET, the backing track to the bonus track is exactly the same as the Second Edition.

    What this means is that all of the components that make up the Second Edition (and Definitive Edition) version of "Chicago" are on the two-disc remaster, but they are just not on the same track. i.e. If you could somehow lift the second half of the original vocal take to replace the second half on the bonus track, you'd have the Second Edition version.

    How weird is that?
     
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  20. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    So the original mix is not included on the DE cd? Oy! Never realized that. I have the US lp and do not care for the sound of it. Much too trebly. On vinyl I love the sound of the Networking ep. That is my preferred way to listen to "Before The Flood". Does anyone know which mix is on Networking or is it yet another mix? I guess I could do my own listening tests, but I'm not sure I have the patience to compare 4 versions of this song :laugh:
     
  21. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    I prefer the original. I don't think Fripp has a great track record with his revisionism.
     
  22. R. Totale

    R. Totale The Voice of Reason

    Just by the by, "Chicago" is the only song that's not on one of his own records I've ever heard Hammill sing in concert. He did it a capella as an encore to a show I saw on the 1990 tour which produced the "Room Temperature" live album.
     
  23. dlokazip

    dlokazip Forum Transient

    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    The only CD that has the original mix is disc one of the 2-disc 2006 remaster.

    Your LP could have either mix. Do you have the catalog number or the timing of "Haaden Two" handy?

    I don't know much about Network, but from what I've read, it appears to have the 1983 remix versions.

    I'm not all that familiar with Hammill, but "Chicago" is just a tour de force. An absolutely wonderful vocal performance.

    I'm sure it sounded great a capella.
     
  24. bcaulf

    bcaulf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thanks for the input guys. I'm really quite stunned that one album could have so many different variations.

    And the poll results show the original mix winning by a landslide.

    If you wish to vote and prefer the Second Edition then vote for the Third Edition, because I consider them the same save for some alternate vocal takes.
     
  25. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    Oops, I got confused and was thinking DE referred to the 2 cd version. That's what I've got so I do have the original mix. I don't have the lp handy, but based on the deadwax I believe it's the first U.S. pressing so it should be the original mix. I think excess treble is more a mastering issue than a mix issue. I don't recall the 2 cd remaster sounding overly trebly.
     
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