Poll : 'Roger the Engineer' album by The Yardbirds (1963–1968) in your collection?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by AdamCalifornia, Oct 27, 2014.

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  1. michael landes

    michael landes Forum Resident

    Even with all that the out put is very very small. That is the real shocker to me, that a group whose output was so tiny could loom so large for me personally.
    Lots of guys I'm sympatico with have no/little love for this stuff, but for me there is NO more important single group in the sixties, both in terms of inherent
    quality of output and in terms of short and long term influence. Hm... sort of like the Velvets... except evem those guys had a huge output compared to these
    unfortunate sad sacks.
    Of course I'm only referring to what the band itself wanted out. the Little Games stuff they
    didn't want out. The eventually withdrawn live album was withdrawn because they didn't want it out. Obviously the outtakes and alternate takes that many collect (much of it awful) they
    they didn't want out. And then there is the pile of audience tapes of live performances. You can collect a mountain of "yardbirds" stuff, but I'm not referring to all that ephemera when I refer
    to their "output"
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
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  2. Only Roger. An orig UK 2 box EMI pressing with -1/-1 matrices, but only after I had heard it at a buddy's place some years back and wondered how I didn't already own it. It's a sensational record.
     
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  3. mBen989

    mBen989 Senior Member

    Location:
    Scranton, PA
    I only have the Rhino CD for Five Live Yardbirds but if I was to buy Roger, what are my options (vinyl and/or CD) ?
     
  4. A. Scrounger

    A. Scrounger Forum Resident

    Yep, along with seven other cd's and a handful of vinyl. I really enjoy the "Ultimate!" collection.
     
  5. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    The least bright, but still pretty lively, especially for the era.
     
  6. cc--

    cc-- Forum Resident

    Location:
    brooklyn
    thanks for pointing that out -- it helps explain why not much seems to be happening on several cuts...
     
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  7. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    For all of the folks owning at least 4 copies of Roger there is a lack of serious comparisons on the various issues. The stereo I recall has a guitar part or two missing in the mono mix. Anyone recall that bit of triv? I also have the Warners Archive issue, and can't recall comparing them back to back either.

    Anyway the yellow Edsel CD from 1986-87 is an awesome and amazing place to start. A bit bright just like the master mixes, and it features the two single cuts with Beck/Page together.

    Nobody has ever disputed that this CD comes from the true stereo master tapes. It jumps out of your speakers like true masters do. I paid $18.99 I think back when imports were always just under $20. I never felt ripped off by this CD's high (for me at the time) price.
     
  8. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Isn't that called "New York City Blues"? I can't stand Relf on that one.
     
  9. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    "Ultimate" looks like a good overview. If you are me, though, you could probably buy the Rhino "Greatest Hits vol 1" (does it use all the correct mixes?) and any mono-inclusive "Roger" that includes the bonus "Happenings" single (which is most of them), and have everything essential they ever did. (Potential mastering issues aside, and maybe no real problems, even, other than random, non-chronological programming on the Rhino.) Throw in "5 live", I guess. That Rhino set conveniently has no overlap with "Roger"--I think it had to do with permissions.

    EDIT: As "Ultimate" has everything on that Rhino set other than the trivial "Putty," I suppose I'd give the edge to it. I think it's sad that it is missing "Ever Since The World Began," because the first half feels like a real predecessor to heavy metal's explorations of the idea of Satan. (and yeah, the second half is silly.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  10. michael landes

    michael landes Forum Resident

    Exactly so. And whether someone likes Relf EVER is strictly a personal matter. But I hear you about that one. love it myself but ..........
    I love hearing how just over a year or so their repertoire dramatically evolves. I'm NOT referring to the songs they play, but in HOW they play
    the same old songs they've played since the beginning. That song, or what amounts to it, is on Five Live, but what a difference! As with
    I'm A Man, as with even Smokestack Lightening. I mean that BBC version is necessarily BETTER as the Clapton thing is wonderful in its
    way, but it's quite different.
     
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  11. jimtek

    jimtek Forum Resident

    I have the 1980's Charly Yardbirds box set "Shapes of things" 6 lp's and a booklet that ends right before RTE or OUSD, which includes Odds and Sods, Sonny Boy Willianson with the Yardbirds,the first recordings, 5 live Yardbirds, For Your love, Rave Up and Shapes of things.
     
  12. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    How the stereo album compares to the mono album:

    Side 1

    A1. Lost Women
    heavy reverb on Relf's lead vocal and harmonica which are mixed far right (drier in mono).

    A2. Over, Under, Sideways, Down

    fake stereo from mono mix.

    A3. The Nazz Are Blue

    heavy reverb on Beck's lead vocal which is mixed far right (a little drier in mono).

    A4. I Can't Make Your Way
    much less compressed than the mono mix.
    centred vocals with a little more reverb (very dry on mono mix).
    drums barely audible in either mix.

    [Note: this track is the sole IBC Glyn Johns engineered recording]

    A5. Rack My Mind

    Relf's vocal and harmonica mixed far right (drier than the mono, for once).
    Relf's harmonica is audible in all the breaks playing opposite Beck's lead (only clearly audible during the intro on the mono mix).


    A6. Farewell

    Relf's lead vocal mixed far right - backing vocals loud and clear in left channel until last section where there is an edit or punch-in to a more subdued balance.
    heavy stereo reverb on all vocals.
    the mono mix has Relf out in front on lead vocal (very dry) with a more subdued backing mix throughout.



    Side 2:

    B1. Hot House Of Omagarashid

    mono intro edited onto stereo mix.
    rhythm guitar almost completely inaudible until 1'26'' (inaudible on mono mix until it fades in at 58'').
    no lead guitar (starts at 1'40'' on mono mix).
    no final scream from Chris Dreja - heard only at the end of the mono mix.


    B2. Jeff's Boogie

    fake stereo from mono mix.

    B3. He's Always There
    centred vocals but a weak sounding mix.
    rhythm guitar in choruses mixed very low (both guitars at similar level on mono mix).
    fades 15 seconds earlier than mono mix.


    B4. Turn Into Earth
    count-in edited out.
    on the mono there's an extra bar on the front of the intro - bass drum and hi-hat along with Jim McCarty's count-in.
    odd stereo mix (edited 2-track work part for mono mix) - lead vocal hard left, everything else hard right.
    mono mixed from unedited 2-track work part (balanced for more lead vocal, not a straight fold).

    B5. What Do You Want
    Relf's lead vocals mixed far right, backing vocals left, all with stereo reverb (drier on the mono mix).

    B6. Ever Since The World Began

    Relf's lead vocal mixed far right, backing vocals left and centre, all with stereo reverb.
    more effective contrast from a much drier lead vocal in the second part of the song in the mono mix.



    This doesn't line up completely with the differences listed in Greg Russo's short note comparing the mono and stereo LP in Yardbirds - The Ultimate Rave-Up (ISBN: 0-9648157-8-8). I assume the various mono and stereo CDs match the original LPs for content? In particular, he mentions 'extra guitar track and alternate vocals' for "Lost Women" and a longer intro on "I Can't Make Your Way" for the mono LP, neither of which are the case on the stereo/mono Victor (Japan) CD I am listening to (VICP-70091). The other differences he cites match the CD and I can see how you could perhaps mistakenly think "Lost Women" is as he describes (dry vocals vs wet, level differences) but "I Can't Make Your Way" has the same intro. Is it possible the original mono and stereo LPs differ in this regard?

    So, although the mono mix is the better listen as an entire album, there's plenty to love about the good stereo tracks, with some of the stereo mixes rivaling their mono counterparts and some surpassing them.

    Here's a little more associated detail, with help from Greg Russo's great book (and a little guesswork):


    Recording details (recorded in London):

    "Over Under Sideways Down" and "Jeff's Boogie" recorded at Advision (engineer: Roger Cameron), 19th-20th April, 1966

    All other tracks recorded at Advision (engineer: Roger Cameron) 31st May-4th June, 1966, except "I Can't Make Your Way", recorded at IBC (engineer: Glyn Johns), 14th June, 1966


    Personnel:

    Keith Relf: vocals, harmonica, percussion
    Jeff Beck: guitar, vocals, percussion
    Chris Dreja: guitar, piano, vocals
    Jim McCarty: drums, vocals, percussion
    Paul Samwell-Smith: bass (A1, A2, A3, A5, B2, B5), vocals
    Mick Fitzpatrick: bass (A4, A6, B1, B3, B4, B6)


    Credits:

    Sleeve Notes: Jim McCarty
    Cover Design and Artwork: Chris Dreja

    All titles composed by: Dreja—McCarty—Beck—Relf—Samwell-Smith

    Production: Paul Samwell-Smith and Simon Napier Bell

    [Note: "Turn To Earth" incorrectly credited on the LP - written by Paul Samwell-Smith and Rosemary Simon]


    UK releases:

    45 - "Over Under Sideways Down" b/w "Jeff's Boogie" (Columbia DB 7928, 27th May, 1966)
    [Note: hence the fake stereo on the LP]

    LP - YARDBIRDS (Columbia SX 6063 [mono], SCX 6063 [stereo], 15th July, 1966)

    EP - "Over Under Sideways Down" / "I Can't Make Your Way" b/w "He's Always There" / "What Do You Want" (Columbia SEG 8521, 27th January, 1967)


    US releases:

    45 - "Over Under Sideways Down" b/w "Jeff's Boogie" (Epic 5-10035, 13th June, 1966)

    45 - "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" b/w "The Nazz Are Blue" (Epic 5-10094, 7th November, 1966)

    LP - Over Under Sideways Down (Epic LN 24210 [mono], BN 26210 [stereo], 8th August, 1966)

    [Note: US LP drops "The Nazz Are Blue" and "Rack My Mind" from the original 12 songs and puts the side-break between "Hot House Of Omagarashid" and "Jeff's Boogie"]


    Columbia SX 6063:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  13. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    Wow, very informative post! I don't suppose you could post some samples of your mono CD, just out of curiosity?
     
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  14. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    That won't be so easy but I'll see if I can figure something out over the weekend :thumbsup:
     
  15. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    I wouldn't be surprised but I've not heard the earlier releases.

    I'd say the mono/stereo Repertoire 2CD box or the Diabalo (although I've never heard the latter) to start with.

    Victor
    (Japan) 2009 mini-LP (VICP-70019) is the best I've heard on CD (earlier mini-LP may be the same).

    Recorded at Columbia, New York, 21st September, 1966 (engineer: Roy Halee)

    Great vocals and harmonica from Relf, as usual - in a Stevie Wright way, for the vocals, in a Stevie Wonder plays the blues way for the harmonica playing!

    :)

    I love Relf's as a singer like I love Ray Davies or Stevie Wright. Perfect for the magic combination of all the less than ideal sounding individual elements that go into the greatest bands.

    As for his harmonica playing - I can't imagine anyone better complimenting Beck's guitar wizardry.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    I think its amazing this is the same guy who founded a progressive rock band (one ahead of their time), and whom have become one of my favorite groups. Who would've thought?
     
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  17. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Stereo on that Shapes dub?
     
  18. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    Yes, but it's not great sounding stereo. For Your Love seems to be all mono and Roger is stereo, with the fake stereo exceptions.
     
  19. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    I have the Edsel mono LP. I think it sounds pretty darn good, great record.
     
  20. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    For CDs issued this is the first one on Edsel from 1986, and imo the best. I suspect that other CDs often have used this one as their master.

    I wonder when or if the EMI deal expired, and EMI no longer have the copyright on this title. It's odd that Edsel does not credit EMI at all on the package. It is a UK made disc.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  21. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    EMI never owned the rights to the Roger the Engineer lp; the band had split with manager Giorgio Gomelsky, and they own the the Roger material - that's why it's been licensed to so many companies for reissue over the years.
     
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  22. cc--

    cc-- Forum Resident

    Location:
    brooklyn
    so you like the stereo for this album? I'm considering finding the mono...
     
  23. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    If your pressing is from the early 70's with gramophone co rim text then it should sound just as good as the original. in fact even the EMI rim text copies are likely to sound as good but the quality of the post 73 vinyl can be patchy. UK originals, mono and especially stereo's are incredibly hard to find, you just never see them !!
     
  24. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    This is sadly true, although there is a UK pressed export Columbia LP " Rave up " i believe. Being export it is stereo only and if that were possible it is even harder to find that original UK Roger's. Original Five live's are much more common but still trades for a very decent sum
     
  25. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    The scene in Blow Up that has the Yardbirds playing Stroll On. Great period movie also.


     
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