PONO Feedback? Anyone have one yet?

Since I've been doing a little analysis lately, let me take a crack at this.

I don't have the Thriller DSD download, but I have the single-layer Thriller SACD released on the Epic label. I also have a very interesting PS3, so Thriller .dsf files now reside on my Pono player. While I can state that the Thriller DSD files indeed sound a fair deal louder than other Pono resident DSD files, but still sound completely fine, I also know that you personally often favor a numerical approach to things. Let's do that...

As you might have seen in the forums at some point, I own a Sound Devices USBPre 2. (Viewable here.) The USBPre 2 "Aux" ins are "consumer characteristic" stereo RCA sockets. The USBPre 2, along with a standard "1/8th inch TRS plug / stereo RCA" Y-cable, allows me to digitize and record Pono player output for further analysis. I also have Korg AudioGate 2.3.3--that I can use Twitter free since I own a Korg MR2 DSD recorder--that allows me to directly convert DSD files to hi-rez PCM for comparison and analysis purposes.

Okay, that kind of sets things up.

I first ran the full set of Thriller .dsf files through AudioGate, converting copies to 176.4k/24 PCM. One thing that AudioGate does is to first pass through the full set of files it is converting so it can normalize them so the maximum peak level won't saturate PCM storage--while still keeping the proper track-to-track relative RMS levels. As a result of this normalization, AudioGate reduced the level of each file by 7.7 dB for PCM storage. Yeah, the Thriller DSD files are loud! (But not at all in the "compressed" sense of loud.)

Once in 176.4k/24 format, I brought all Thriller files into Sound Forge Pro 11 so I could measure the peak and RMS dB values for each file. The song with the highest peak level was "Billie Jean" which had a peak of -0.2 dB in PCM and an RMS of -22.1 dB (a peak-RMS delta of 21.9 dB). So "Billie Jean" was the song I used for my Pono/DSD analysis.

For recording, I used Vegas Pro 13, set for 192k/24 recording, and played the end portion of "Beat It", continuing through all of "Billie Jean", continuing through the first several seconds of "Human Nature", so I could later use Vegas Pro to trim the recorded stream to exactly match the start through the end of the AudioGate 176.4k/24 rendered "Billie Jean". I first recorded from the Pono line out (using the Pono "Fixed line out level" setting). Next I used my NAD Viso HP50 (single-ended) headphones to determine a loud, but still reasonably comfortable, headphone out level from the Pono and recorded that. Finally, I set the headphone level to maximum and recorded that output from the Pono. After trimming each recording to match the AudioGate "Billie Jean", I brought the trimmed recordings into Sound Forge Pro for peak and RMS level measurements.

Here are the results. . .

AudioGate once more) peak: -0.2 dB; RMS: -22.1 dB; peak-RMS: 21.9 dB

Line out) peak: -7.9 dB; RMS: -29.9 dB; peak-RMS: 22.0 dB

Headphone out for NAD headphones) peak: -18.8 dB; RMS: -40.6 dB; peak-RMS: 21.8 dB

Maximum headphone out) peak: -1.1 dB; RMS: -22.9 dB; peak-RMS: 21.8 dB

Note that the USBPre 2 has analog input gain controls, and I left them at a previous carefully determined setting. So while any of the Pono output peaks are not directly comparable to the AudioGate peak, the Pono peaks are still comparable to each other. But the important thing is that all peak-RMS deltas are essentially identical. There is no sign of analog, or DAC, saturation even with Thriller DSD.

Anyone who says that Thriller DSD is fine on a Pono is probably correct.

 

^^^ Thanks a lot for thorough analysis. Any chance of seeing the Pono waveform closeups (similar to PCM2DSD conversion with foo_input_sacd plug-in that I posted)?

 

If you look at Thriller in a waveform editor (after converting to PCM), you will notice that the "out of spec" issue is caused by a number of random glitches. If you clean them up with a click repair type utility, it becomes much more normal looking. I imagine those couple of sample glitches are pretty hard to hear. Anyway it is pretty obvious looking at the peaks that something went a little wrong or perhaps something in the "out of spec-ness" of the DSD makes PCM converters freak out in a few spots.

 

The fact that peak-to-RMS ratios are pretty much identical for both AudioGate's DSD2PCM conversion & Pono native DSD DAC output means that spurious peaks on Thriller [DSD/US-SACD] album are likely present in DSD source itself...

 

I see from the forum page you linked you've looked at Billie Jean yourself, so perhaps this will suffice since I didn't record Pono audio for any other Thriller tracks.




The top stereo pair is from the 192k/24 recording of Pono maximum headphone output. And for comparison purposes, the lower stereo pair is from the 176.4k/24 AudioGate conversion. I expanded each around the "dropout" in the lower trace of each stereo pair till they looked approximately the same as each other. I'm assuming the difference in sample rates kept the matching from being quite precise, but they still probably get the idea across. The visible region contains the start of actual Billie Jean musical information, and you'll see from the timeline information above each pair it's very soon after Billie Jean starts. I believe the "dropout" I expanded around is the one that provided the dB peak value for each file referenced in post #701.

Given the nature of the "peak", and the other similar data points I expanded around but did not post, these specific points look to me very much like data errors in Billie Jean DSD. Every such point, whenever they occur in Billie Jean, seems to occur during a beat/drum impact, so I expect it isn't really possible to hear them as anything other than the beat impact itself. I also assume that somehow the beat impact induced the DSD data error.

But all in all, data errors or not, Thriller DSD sounds quite good, even exceptional. Anyone who plays Thriller DSD on a Pono for their significant other is probably risking having their Pono taken from them...long term.

 

^^^ Thanks again. Fascinating insight, indeed. Pretty sure, those spikes in DSD audio were caused by sigma-delta modulator overruns due to Thriller audio mastering levels being way above recommended one from SACD Scarlet Book (+3.1dBFS DSD). I agree, that despite similar spikes on several of its tracks, Thriller [DSD/US-SACD] delivers phenomenal sound quality (it's certainly one of the very best sounding DSD64 transfers I encountered; even though, its polarity appears to be reversed, compared to several album's CD masterings). It's definitely great to see Pono player being able to handle the most extreme levels in DSD audio flawlessly. Looks like Pono DAC's DSD portion (just like it's PCM portion) is competently designed...

 

Thanks for everyone's help earlier. I received a replacement and the new one is much less wonky with the display noise. I feel I can still pick up when the amp circuits are active, and when they cut out with lack of activity, but I suppose I am kind of sensitive to these things and also have not listened to headphone dac/amps in a while to remember how much of it was generally there. That and perhaps the Cardas balanced-cabled IEM sensitivity is such that on this issue it is not the best match or needs a lower gain setting, I barely get the volume above 1/4 way usually although I don't listen loud. This slight amp noise is not affected by volume, so I am not thinking it is anything terribly weird at this point, just an active circuit. Cardas offered to test the cable and headphones if I wanted but I will wait a bit to decide.

The Cardas EM5813 headphones are a great match when the music is playing though, really fantastic so far. Through this process I switched from the balanced mode to my Etymotic ER4S to try and figure out what is going on and I was pretty shocked how they paled in comparison. Recognizing that is a difficult headphone to drive I tried my Etymotic hf5 that gets used right out of the iPhone, and out of the Pono it was not leaps and bounds better than the iPhone; maybe over time the differences would become more apparent however, as I was more quick-testing, but then when going back to balanced, wow it just hits you big time, another world really and no doubt far closer to being in front of my main stereo.

Beyond that I cannot really add much as I don't have a ton of experience with a variety of headphones or dac/amps and this is my first DAP and first balanced headphone. I know it is early to be making big judgements, but I will say I have been plenty disappointed right out the gate with a new DAC/AMP amp, the HP-P1, which cost more than this player, so I feel confident this is not a case of spending money and forcing yourself to like/justify it. I am not going to win any Pono Scroller of the Year award, but I look forward to using this a ton, and maybe seeing what some other balanced IEMs can do searching for a great match.

 

I once had what I considered a similar experience with matching a portable audio player with earphones in that I found the volume level too much even at the lower levels (20% to 40%). I would guess there was a mismatch (impedance, voltage?) in that I could hear the tape hiss almost overwhelm the music. Adding the included airline adaptor to the chain brought it under control, as well as allowing finer control over the volume. Given that the Pono uses standard mini stereo jacks, one could even add them to a balanced setup if necessary. You might experiment with this, and given that different airline adpators/attenuators have different impedance values, there is the possibility of fine tuning earphone performance through this as well.

 

I just noticed last night that I get a hum from my player (through the Line Out jack) whenever the player is powered on but not engaged (ie. the track that was playing is done or stopped). It's the oddest thing: as long as a file is being read (even if it's silence), not a peep; then, as soon as the file is complete, the hum reappears. It sounds like a ground wire has been disconnected from the turntable... But as long as a file is engaged, all is great. Does anyone think I should be worried?

 

I stopped worrying about it frankly. I listened to a different dac/amp and it has a similar signature of an active/idle amp circuit hiss [I don't know how you feel, but I have stopped calling it hum, it is something less than that], possibly less so but as I cannot use the balanced headphones on both to truly compare I don’t know if it is the headphones accentuating it or not; and also I think at least with IEMs this gets accentuated because of the being so closed in. The key is none of it gets in the way of the music, if the recording does not have hiss, I don’t hear the amp circuit when playing; if the recording has hiss, I hear it in all its pono glory. This thing is not forgiving on spotty recordings but I don’t think it should be.

As far as single-ended lineout I also notice trace hiss when hooked to a desktop system, less than when the amp is active/idle via IEMs, but more than say my cd play hooked to my main rig that has power conditioning and balanced cables [I have not hooked the pono up to it nor do I plan to]. I am not worried about it because it is a battery operated device that as you say, when the music plays this is not a factor. I cannot help but notice how much foot tapping goes on with this thing. Engaging is my keyword.

 

I have to agree with you there on several points... I recall when I A/B'd a Vestax "DJ Turntable" against a newly-acquired, used Rega Planar 2 system through a friend's hi-fi setup. First, we listened to Steely Dan's "Dallas" (off the UK "+4" EP): it was obviously sourced from a multi-generational production copy (mono, even) and had tons of hiss from the first second of music to the fade-out (with the take-in groove being comparatively dead quiet). Then I plugged the Rega Planar 2 in and played the same track. The three of us just looked dumbfounded: the recording's hiss had disappeared! It was obviously a product of the LP on the Vestax (as the few seconds before the song began were absolutely quiet, then the hiss would always start at exactly the same time). As I was running it through an old boombox-type system I picked up for casual listening (the Pono still sounds great through it, with speakers taken from a much newer model someone else was throwing away), the boombox's electronics could very well be causing the issue.

Engaging? Indeed! Ironic, however, that the best-sounding file format on the Pono (hands down, DSD/DSF sourced directly from the analog master tape or a completely analog live performance) is one that was added into the firmware at a later date, and is not available whatsoever at the PONO store (which only really matters if you're from within the US: we're now close to Q4 of 2015 and we've yet to see anywhere outside the US benefit from the PONO store or the Ponopromise).

 

As the "Edit" option disappears after a space of time, I find it best to add a quick note in a separate message that the above line refers to my Pono, and not the Vestax or Rega turntables. It's quite possible a lesser-quality system may pick up on stuff that higher-end systems would basically ignore/discard (such as the hum when the player is on but not actively playing a sound file).

 

Has anyone used the Pono lineout to powered monitors that don’t have their own volume control? Is the variable lineout controlled by the volume buttons or in the player settings? Perhaps it is impractical but I think theoretically possible right?

I also wonder if you could play balanced out to monitors that accept XLR say like one of the Emotiva powered monitors. Balanced out of the pono to an amp is volume controlled on the Pono right; it is amp-out not lineout, or am I wrong there, I can’t find anything definitive on the matter? It seems like that could be a pretty sweet little halfway portable speaker option, just two powered monitors and a pono balanced out acting as the preamp.

 

The line out can be set to fixed or variable, and yes, it can be used balanced mode. There are tech sheets on the Pono site that cover those subjects.

 

I currently use custom XLR to Pono cables in balanced mode with both my Emotiva Airmotivs and Focal CMS65s all the time. Volume can be altered via the Pono for monitors without controls, or you can set the volume to 100 on the Pono and control volume via the monitors should they have a volume control of thier own...

 

Thanks for confirming that I'll bet it sounds pretty sweet. Probably not necessary in a setup like you use but I noticed Emotiva makes a balanced cabled passive volume control that maybe adds convenience. https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak

 

By the way, does either the Emotiva or the Focal work better than the other with the Pono? Thanks

 

To be perfectly honest, they're a different class of speaker entirely, and they should be, considering the price differential (realizing that the price difference and perceived sound difference may not always be in direct proportion), but, that said, they are both fantastic options for the Pono...

 

Hi

¿Could you please tell me which set of speakers sound more natural (or neutral)? Thanks

 

Pitro, this is quite a question!

In theory, both monitors ostensibly aim to be as "neutral" as possible, as is required by their intended purpose...

In reality? Trying to form some sort of a correlation, or to, say, hazard a guess as to some arbitrary percentage of performance increase vs. dollars spent is a fool's errand...

Should I say that the Focals are objectively as good as the price difference of roughly $1200 ($400-500 vs. around $1600) should indicate?
Surely, one could accuse me of a confirmation bias!

The Emotivas are a tremendous bargain, IMO. The ribbon tweeter produces a really unique, sparkly, but well-controlled treble. The 5.25 in woofer produces bass that is not necessarily boomy or flabby to my ears, but, can be, as with nearly all nearfield listening situations, heavily dependent upon placement. The mid-range is rich and quite transparent, though also please do take into account that I have not heard the newer Airmotiv 5S, which I have heard have a slightly improved mid-range....A great, great listen! Everyone should grab the chance to at least hear a ribbon tweeter, IMO...

With the Focals, you're looking at a 6.5in driver with a 100w woofer and a 60w dome tweeter...Right on the line, IMO, where you really need to be considerate of your desk space. There are the requisite frequency knobs on both sets, should you choose to twiddle, but, from where I sit, once the grills are removed and the tweeter guards are applied, the Focals are just pure magic straight away. To my ears, the difference had me overjoyed...Bear in mind, they will BRUTALLY expose your source material. You are hearing the music and not your gear, for sure...Some people may not enjoy such a presentation..that, only you can decide.

Again, budget, desk space, listening environment, use case...All critical. The Pono deserves great downstream gear, and, I know you may be seeking a definitive response here, but, believe me when I say that either option is a brilliant choice. The Pono can definitely scale pretty well, and is worthy of whatever gear you elect to hook up...

Should you have any more specific questions, please don't hesitate to PM me....

 

Thanks a lot for your thorough review. I really appreciate it I know a "definitive response" is sort of impossible as we all hear things differently and focus on different sound details. However, as I cannot test any of the speakers, yours and other members' contributions are really appreciated.
Unfortunately, the Emotivas are out of the question because there are no dealers in Spain and the custom charges can be brutal. I can get the Focal CMS65 for about 800€ though, so definitely I'll have to wait for Christmas as I cannot stretch my budget right now.
The only thing that backs me out is the size. Well, to be or not to be, that is the question

Thanks again

 

I don't know if this article helps. Since it is about powered speakers that are above your price point. DAR (Digital Audio Review) just posted an editorial about the potential benefits of powered speakers: Think about the future: an *active* KEF LS50 loudspeaker?

Some of the powered speakers mentioned aren't balanced. Some include a USB DAC as part of the package (I don't consider a cheap bundled USB DAC to be something I want and including it with the speaker would be a waste of money as far as I'm concerned). He does present some arguments in favor of powered speakers. They have potential to maximize performance at a given price (combing cost for speakers and amp). Still, an active KEF LS50 is still going to be over $1500 since the passive LS50 is $1500 for a pair. The active speakers he's asking for are still more expensive than what you're looking for.

 

The only thing that gives me pause about the x300A referenced in the article is the mention in some reviews I've read that they re-digitize the analog input before passing it through the internal DAC...I don't know what effect, if any, this has on the sound, but, I try to avoid extra steps in the process when possible...

 

$50 off if anyone is interested:

Pono Announcements — Randy Leasure (PonoMusic)
Aloha!
The PonoMusic Community is fast approaching its 50,000th PonoCommunity Member!
In celebration to the countdown of this milestone, we are offering $50 off the purchase of a PonoPlayer now through Monday 9/21/15.

Just use the code: 50PLAYER50OFF at check out at PonoMusic.com

Additionally, the lucky 50,000th member will receive a PonoPackage that includes a PonoPlayer, a signed Neil Young Poster, Pono T-Shirt and $50 of PonoMusic Store credit.

Mahalo!
The PonoMusic Team

@Pono Announcements
@PonoMusic Store
@PonoMusic World
@The PonoPlayer

(Purchase of the Player is for US customers)

 

Has anyone pondered adding add additional sort options? We get Artists, Albums, Songs, Playlists, Revealer. I would like Format and Sound Quality or the like. Is there a way to add these?