Pono store to open with 2.5million tracks?

Read it. Thanks.
Much more technical than I would prefer.

This has presented quite a conundrum, as now I don't know whether whether I should spend my money on a PONO or an EEG.

 

Where/when did Pono announce that they were remastering music? I'm fairly certain they made it clear that they weren't in the business of remastering music. Also, LOL at the snobs who can't get over them selling "standard resolution" flac files.

You posted it as a statement. You're not Robert Hutton are you?

 

It's sad to me that so many people who claim to "love science," use it as an excuse to close their mind. At the heart of the scientific method is the idea that what we think we know today might at some point be disproven with better data and new discoveries. "Science lovers" often seem to forget that science once postulated spontaneous generation as an explanation for maggots in corpses. There are many many other examples of scientific certainty that were later disproven as knowledge increased.

I personally find that wisdom and humility are inextricably linked. The wisest people I know or have read are the ones who realize that certainty is a continuum, with very few absolutely certain things at the extreme end of that continuum. Fools OTOH seem to be absolutely certain about everything. I avoid the latter like the plague. Thank gawd for ignore lists.

 

The word that seems relevent when addressing the idolators of 16/44 as the never-to-be-surpassed sonic endgame, perfectly congruent with the limits of human hearing, and beyond which there is nothing but “snake oil” and confirmation bias, is “scientism”:

So if science is distinct from scientism, what is it? Science is an activity that seeks to explore the natural world using well-established, clearly-delineated methods. Given the complexity of the universe, from the very big to very small, from inorganic to organic, there is a vast array of scientific disciplines, each with its own specific techniques. The number of different specializations is constantly increasing, leading to more questions and areas of exploration than ever before. Science expands our understanding, rather than limiting it.

Scientism, on the other hand, is a speculative worldview about the ultimate reality of the universe and its meaning. Despite the fact that there are millions of species on our planet, scientism focuses an inordinate amount of its attention on human behavior and beliefs. Rather than working within carefully constructed boundaries and methodologies established by researchers, it broadly generalizes entire fields of academic expertise and dismisses many of them as inferior. With scientism, you will regularly hear explanations that rely on words like “merely”, “only”, “simply”, or “nothing more than”. Scientism restricts human inquiry.

“What Is Scientism?”​

 

I use it as an excuse to close my wallet.

That said - if you enjoy 24/192, like paying more for it and actually "believe" you are hearing something "better" - rock on bud. No one is gonna stop you.

VP

 

Yeah, you may not stop me, but you sure seem inclined to pee in the hi-res punchbowl at every opportunity. If your attitude were truly charitable, your behavior would be different. I smell fear. Fear that what you believe to be true may not be so solidly true after all.

I think it's relevant to remember that "science" once believed that human beings could not travel faster than 35 miles per hour or their capillaries would burst. Where would we be if everyone accepted that as a universal truth and ceased development on the automobile and the airplane?

 

Science has little to do with why I don't chase after high res versions of albums. Years of experience working between high res, redbook and lossy files in various environments brought me to that conclusion.

 

Hey - if ya gotta go...ya gotta go.

The only "fear" I have is being scammed into padding record company coffers by purchasing more "hi res" recordings. If these companies would give us full explicit details on what exactly it is we are really buying AND how it was created, where it came from - I probably would have a better attitude.

Here's hoping Pono Music will take a stand in this regard....

VP

 

I've never once suggested to you that you should buy even a single song in hi-res format. In fact, I consistently say that if one cannot hear the difference that one should not pay for the difference. Why then do you find it necessary to say that anyone who can hear the difference is deluded? You say exactly that repeatedly. Why do you feel the need to do that?

You believe what you believe. Why so little confidence in it? It's as if you are trying to convince yourself that you aren't missing out on something... that your little pile of red book CDs is as good as it gets. It's all very Copernican. I mean, what would the implications be if the sun did not revolve around the earth? We survived that one didn't we. I'm sure the human race could survive knowing that red book isn't the end all be all for audio quality.

 

Wow

 

Yes, I'm starting to wonder about that too. Many critics sound as if Pono started its campaign with the promise of loads of new and exclusive audiophile remasters. That's not how I remember it. I think Pono has always been mainly about hi-res (or lately at least lossless). All the marketing was about how lacking MP3 as a format was and how big an improvement hi-res files would be. Mastering was never the point (unfortunately).

Another thing that people seem to misunderstand is that the Pono store is not supposed to be just a website for hi-res files like HDTracks, but rather aims to be something like a lossless/hi-res iTunes. The download store along with the player is supposed to be a system like iTunes and the iPod. Downloads, library and player all working together the way modern consumers are used to it. That's why offering a vast number of titles makes sense and why 16/44.1 files still make sense, even if these album are available on CD as well. It's not aimed at people who would prefer a physical version of an album in general. It's aimed at the people who are used to buying songs or albums as downloads and don't want to be bothered with ripping CDs, organising their libraries themselves and what program to use to transfer the music to their portable player.

They don't have us in mind as their target group.

 

There seems to be this perception that those who aren't believers in the benefits of high res must have little or no experience with it.

 

This is a rather nasty post and not worthy of this forum.

'Peeing in the punchbowl', 'you're fearful', 'you're anti-science'.

You might want to lighten up a bit.

 

My understanding is that it would be open to anyone and any device, unlike iTunes. I thought it was a hybrid of iTunes/HD Tracks where you could live inside or outside of the Pono ecosystem?

Bill

 

wolfram is right that Pono will be targeted to the masses and that 16/44.1 does make sense for Pono.

 

Yes, it will be open for use outside the "Pono system". Of course you can do with your FLAC files whatever you want. But the fact that they launch Pono as a combination of store, software and player makes the comparison with iTunes obvious to me. After all, you're not tied to the iTunes software or the iPod for playback of iTunes downloads either.

 

Humorous example, if not ironic, considering my degree in biology.

There seems to be confusion as to the point of my previous post. I am certainly no "idolater" of 16/44.1 bitrate. I specifically stated that quality encoding is more important than a higher bitrate, for listening puposes. 16/44.1, or 16/48 for that matter is plenty enough data for the spectrum of your hearing. Just because I don't agree with you is no reason to insert your passive aggressive insults to mine, or other's intelligence.

In my opinion the PONO campaign is a good thing for music. We all want better sounding songs to listen to and any attempt to change things for the better can't be all bad. Perhaps this can lead to other advancements with digital music technology.

I do not however agree with Neil's claims, “CD only gives us 15% of the original signal..." and other embellishments to the efficacy of his project. Yet, here is PONO offering the same bitrate files that have been the whole basis for his argument. There is plenty of documentation by experts in the field of encoding, and music engineering/production that will refute Neil's claims. I choose to believe their unbiased viewpoints rather than one that is propelled by profit.

 

+1. I have plenty of years of experience with it.

Doesn't mean I automatically must believe in it 100%. It is what it is.

VP

 

I've heard from lots of respected voices — mastering engineers, gear designers, and audiophile listeners — who have vast experience with hi-res recording and who hear and enjoy the qualitative differences in audio playback. I've also heard lots of intelligent voices with credible experience who say they hear no difference and/or give definitive credence to tests that show almost no one can tell the difference between hi-res and Red Book or high-quality lossy files.

I respect both camps, but I despise nastiness on both sides. Sadly, in my experience, people who embrace an anti-hi-res stance tend to be more inclined to use curt, dismissive, snarky, and reductive ad hominem tonalities to convey their difference of opinion. Most of the time when I see a pro hi-res person lose it and lash out, it's after they've been baited by aggressive know-it-alls, though not always. Either way, not cool.

Generally speaking, my heart's with the open-hearted people who are venturing forward and investigating the improvement and enhancement and deeper experience of musical reproduction, however they choose to do so, and who are humble about knowledge and the unknown, rather than with people who are shutting down the reach of what's possible, staking out positions with absolute certainty, declaring that the current state of the art is the best of all possible technologies, or impugning the motives and intelligence of anyone who fails to follow their straight and narrow..

 

I love music!

 

Look, apparently some folks feel that I crossed some line. Truthfully, I don't see it that way. But I don't want to debate it. If someone feels that I've wronged them, PM me. I'm not above apologizing when I screw up.

Honestly, I just don't understand scorched earth belief systems. For example, "I so desperately need to believe that such and such is true, I must utterly call your character into question should you disagree with that position in any way." My experience in life is that people of good will can disagree sharply on any number of things and still be decent human beings. One of the things I like best about my life is the incredible diversity of folks who call me "friend" (and vice versa). It leads me to believe that I am doing something right.

Look, here's my position on hi-res in a nutshell: I can hear the difference, I'm happy to pay for the difference. People who can't hear the difference shouldn't pay extra for it. Since no one to my knowledge has yet held a gun to anyone's head making them buy hi-res, I am utterly at a loss as to why everyone's attitude can't be of the "live and let live" persuasion. My enjoyment of hi-res ought not to diminish anyone else's enjoyment of music in whatever format they happen to prefer.

It's kind of like sauerkraut. I loathe the stuff. 'Guess what? I don't buy it and I don't eat it. My wife happens to love the stuff. Do I insist that she's wrong (or worse call her stupid) for eating it? Do I trot out a bunch of "science" proving that the stuff tastes so bad that no one should ever eat it for any reason? Heck no, knock yourself out honey. I've been known to even buy her a dog with kraut on it and bring it to her.

Blessings and peace, Mike

 

"Honestly, I just don't understand scorched earth belief systems. "

As fine an example of irony as I've seen in a long time.

 

Wow... kinda funny to see how a new market entrant gets everybody all worked up. Science this, your beliefs that, you peed in the punch bowl, your ideas suck.. yada yada yada.

If anything audiophiles are a passionate bunch... at least on the internet.

 

Mmmm...sauerkraut on a brat with some spicy mustard.

I'm sorry, were we discussing something else?

 

Passionate or disagreeable?