I'm suggesting that pre-emphasis was applied during the transfer of these albums to digital back in the 80s and those digital masters are cloned for the OAC series discs I listed, possibly with no flagging for the pre-emphasis. Maybe this unflagged pre-emphasis error originally occurred on the earlier releases? I can see it taking a little getting used to if you are more familiar with the treble boosted versions, however, the characteristic wonkiness in the tonal balance from 15/50 µs pre-emphasis is hard to miss once you consider that these albums aren't supposed to be crazily bright. Listening to "Stand Up" as I write and it is absolutely horrible without de-emphasis. Once you allow your ears to adjust to the de-emphasised version it sounds fantastic. Try each album I listed with de-emphasis, all the way through - it's like hearing them properly for the first time For reference, here's "Winning" with a similar tonal balance to the de-emphasised CD:
@Mal - I just listened to "Stand Up" & "Winning" de-emphasised & compared them to the "raw" files & video. I completely understand what you're hearing but I still don't think the de-emphasised files sound right. A happy medium between the two would be best! If the pre-emphasis is "baked in", then the only way to make sure is to compare the EAC #s of the original CDs to these & see if they match.
Another possible reference point - "Hannibal" from Blues for Salvador gives a clue to roughly how it should sound on Zebop!, in terms of overall tonal balance. De-emphasised, the opening classical guitar part matches pretty well, allowing for the minor differences between them. Without de-emphasis, the Zebop! version has a preposterous amount of top-end boost, bringing the reverb up as if it's the main feature. I'm certain that the Original Album Classics discs I listed have audio that had pre-emphasis applied (back in the 80s).
The old Marathon CD sounds very bright compared to the Friday Music and Japan Mini LP remasters (both of which have similar EQ). Aqua Marine is a good example of this. The hi-res version from Qobuz has good DR numbers, but they're not as high as the unremastered and Original Album Classics CD's. This leads me to believe it's pretty likely that the old CD contains PE, even if EAC won't detect it. This whole situation may be the case for Inner Secrets as well, as the hi-res and CD versions differ in DR. The CD and Qobuz versions of Zebop both have the same DR numbers for the most part, so maybe it's just a bright album in general.
Yikes, the Qobuz hi-res samples for Zebop! sound horrible too. The CD sounds much better de-emphasised - the mixing/balance of all the parts makes much more sense. The top end boost on the CD is beyond any normal level, in particular, cymbal energy and reverb are far too over-emphasised on the CD for it to be intentional (the same applies to each of the discs from the Original Album Classics series listed above). I wonder if the hi-res Zebop! on Qobuz is actually sourced from the pre-emphasised CD...
Using EAC, I have compared an original CD of Inner Secrets (1987 Columbia 498371 2 Made In Austria - https://www.discogs.com/Santana-Inner-Secrets/release/5477449) with the Inner Secrets CD from the Original Album Classics set. Both CDs have no PE detected in both EAC & dBpoweramp. Both CDs are identical according to EAC: 98.9 / 91.3 / 96.5 / 88.6 / 99.7 / 89.5 / 98.5 / 92.9 / 100.0
I'm thinking that the error made was that of cloning the audio from the earliest CD editions without flagging the pre-emphasis when subsequent editions were authored and that this error has been carried over into a few re-issue iterations over the years, all the affected discs being derived from the sources with pre-emphasis but with no flags.
Speaking of PE not being detected on a Santana CD, the 2007 budget reissue of Beyond Appearances doesn't have a flag. Yet it has the exact same DR numbers and sound quality as the original CD, which did have detectable PE. I'm not going to doubt the presence of PE on Inner Secrets and Zebop since they do sound kinda bright. I'm not sure if this album was mentioned here yet, but Limahl - Don't Suppose from the Kajagoogoo Original Album Series box set may have PE too. It's far too bright as is, but it sounds much more natural when you add a de-emphasis EQ profile.
The 1987 version I tested of Inner Secrets (that was identical according to EAC to the CD in the Original Albums Classics Set) is the earliest listed on Discogs. There's a Made In Japan Inner Secrets w/ no date on Discogs (Santana - Inner Secrets ) which might be an earlier issue. I'm going to buy it (it's cheap) & see if it has pre-emphasis & report back.
That's the original Japan for Europe pressing Here's another set from the Original Album Classics series that carries pre-emphasis forward from previous editions: The Jacksons [SONY Epic 88697304722] The Jacksons Destiny* Triumph Victory Goin' Places in this set does not have pre-emphasis. * this is a strange one - the first track ("Blame It On The Boogie") does not have pre-emphasis but the rest of the album does
Whoops, I remembered this backwards - it's the US CK 31610 that smokes the Japan for Europe CDCBS 65299 (the US disc is better than the SONY Japan SACD in my opinion).
"Inner Secrets" sounds way too muddy when de-emphasized. It's a bright mastering alright but not every bright mastering is one where they forgot to set the PE flag.
50/15 µs (I got the time constants backwards earlier ) pre-emphasis is not the same as "bright mastering" - it's a ludicrous boost that nobody would intentionally use in a correctly functioning playback chain. I could see it sounding 'too muddy' if switching de-emphasis on and off during playback to compare (or in other quick A/B type comparisons) but with normal listening it is clear that Inner Secrets (and the other discs I've listed) are corrected by applying de-emphasis. Once de-emphasis is applied, the albums I have listed become very tastefully mixed/mastered albums, in keeping with the rest of the original CD catalogue. Try de-emphasis on any albums that are known not to have pre-emphasis and you will hear that they are basically unlistenable - they will sound like your tweeters have blown or like there is a heavy blanket over them. I know these albums have a reputation for being bright - it seems that some people have been listening to the uncorrected pre-emphasised versions for many years and have just accepted that they are horrendously boosted in the treble. With de-emphasis they don't sound muddy at all once you throw away the idea that they are supposed to be horribly thin - instead, they are revealed to be very well recorded and mixed albums after all. If you are still not convinced then just listen to the guitar tone - with de-emphasis applied it sound just right (as usual, for Carlos). Everything is very well balanced with de-emphasis applied - that doesn't happen when you apply 50/15 µs de-emphasis to a normally recorded and mixed track that hasn't had pre-emphasis applied. As a rule, these budget multi-album box sets don't get any new mastering at all - they simply use the standard digital masters they have available. They are the perfect opportunity for this mistake to occur - even at SONY
I'm just listening to "Zebop!" de-emphasized. I dunno, it just sounds too dark and muddy to me. On "Searching" the cymbals sound too supressed, it doesn't sound natural. The CD is bright but I'm not convinced that it sounds correct with a standard de-emphasis curve applied. It just sounds a different kind of bad ;-) Maybe we are using differen't de-emphasis curves. I'm using an Add-On to Audacity and I left it at the standard levels.
I guess it's possible that we have very slightly different de-emphasis curves (I use the SoX command line utility) but I doubt that's the issue. I can understand that it will sound muffled in direct comparison to the untreated audio but have you tried listening to the whole album with de-emphasis? It's quite a revelation - as it is with each of the albums listed. The cymbals sound fine to me on "Searching" but if you're used to them being super hot then I can understand it being a bit of an adjustment. Compare "Bambara" on Viva Santana! (outtake from the Zebop! sessions) with the de-emphasised Zebop! - much more similar tonal balance than when compared with the CD straight. It makes sense that Inner Secrets, Marathon, The Swing Of Delight, Zebop!, Shangó and Beyond Appearances were recorded, mixed and mastered very well, in line with the rest of the catalogue. It seems to me that undetected pre-emphasis has given each of these albums an unfair reputation as being overly bright or badly engineered to those only used to listening to the audio from these CDs without applying de-emphasis.
I made a de-emphasised copy of "Zebop!" and listened to almost half the album without switching to the original CD. Unfortunately I don't have "Viva Santana" for comparison anymore.
See how the vocals all sound correct on the de-emphasised CD? Just the right tonal balance - it's not accidental, try it with any CD known not to have pre-emphasis and the vocals will sound very muffled. I hope you didn't miss trying "Tales Of Kilimanjaro" - it sounds excellent with de-emphasis. It's not a magic wand of course - there may still be things about the mastering you find imperfect after de-emphasis but I think it's clear that the CDs in question have pre-emphasis that needs to be addressed before you can assess the mastering fairly. Listen to Amigos, Festival and Moonflower and then these CDs de-emphasised and you'll hear a very similar overall tonal character - perhaps not as vital as the master tape would be but not bad at all.
As well as an early Made In Japan Inner Secrets, I have just purchased an early Made In Japan Zebop!. As soon as I receive these CDs, I will report if these early Made In Japan CDs have pre-emphasis or not.
Correction - I don't think there's any pre-emphasis on this set after all. Quite bright mastering but de-emphasis sounds all wrong on these - sorry about that!
Hmmm, things aren't sounding quite the same to me today - I have a head-cold so maybe it's affecting my hearing more than I realised. Yesterday, they all sounded good with de-emphasis (The Jacksons too) - I suppose another possibility is that I was listening to the wrong files. I decided to put the untreated files in a subfolder of the folder containing the treated files instead of the other way round as I've always done it in the past (I figured it would be more sensible to have the processed files nearer the top level). I wonder if I was going to the folders I would be used to finding the files in without realising it? The de-emph is noted in the filename but thinking about it, maybe the track name metadata doesn't match. I don't know, I'll listen some more and try to figure out what's going on. Great albums to listen to repeatedly, at least! Anyway, sorry for completely confusing things
That's a relief! I also have The Jacksons set & have been scratching my head wondering why I wasn't getting the same results as you. Just to be certain, I'll still post my Santana findings when I get the early CDs.
I've received the early Made In Japan CD issues for Santana Inner Secrets & Zebop! Below are my results regarding pre-emphasis. I tested 3 CDs of Inner Secrets: 1. CBS CDCBS 86075 (Made In Japan) 2. Columbia 498371 2 (Made In Austria) 3. Original Album Classics All 3 CDs had no pre-emphasis detected in both EAC & dBpoweramp. All 3 CDs were identical according to EAC: 98.9 / 91.3 / 96.5 / 88.6 / 99.7 / 89.5 / 98.5 / 92.9 / 100.0 I tested 2 CDs of Zebop!: 1. CBS CDCBS 84946 (Made In Japan) 2. Original Album Classics Both CDs had no pre-emphasis detected in both EAC & dBpoweramp. Both CDs were identical according to EAC: 76.1 / 67.7 / 94.0 / 89.1 / 70.0 / 71.8 / 74.6 / 64.3 / 69.0 / 71.3 / 70.4 / 82.0
