Pre emphasis list?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by andyinstal, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    Gotcha, what a confusing ass mess this title is. No wonder everyone just said screw it and got the MFSL :laugh:
    I enjoy the one I have so I haven't went further
     
  2. George P

    George P Love Will Lead Us

    Location:
    NYC
    Coincidentally, I have been comparing a copy I have of the MFSL Stranger and it sounds quite nice! importcds had it listed for $25, so I picked a copy up since it seems to be OOP now. The Billy Joel MFSL SACDs took awhile to grow on me, but I love them now.
     
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  3. WiWavelength

    WiWavelength Well-Known Member

    Location:
    United States
    And "52nd Street" follows basically the same early pattern: two 35DP matrix masterings, the first with pre-emphasis, the second without. In this case, though, I have a CSR Japan for US 35DP matrix first mastering and a DADC second mastering.

    AJ
     
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  4. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    I did grab the 2010 MFSL of Piano Man which I enjoy, but I haven't gotten around to comparing it to the US PE 1AC2
     
  5. Y9771

    Y9771 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lithuania
    I only have original WG PolyGram blueface, and it does have PE, as I remember. I believe I posted about it in this thread at some point, but I might be wrong.
     
  6. Downsampled

    Downsampled Formerly PlusMinus

    I have that one too. I just tested it; it does not have PE.
     
    Dave likes this.
  7. WiWavelength

    WiWavelength Well-Known Member

    Location:
    United States
    Folks, here is a pre-emphasis mastering from an unexpected source: Telarc CD-80108.

    Charles Mackerras / Prague Chamber Orchestra "Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik • 'Posthorn' Serenade" [DADC; pre-emphasis]

    DIDX 1404 21A1 neat font; DADC center hub; pre-emphasis flags in TOC; SPARS code: DDD; Recorded in The Hall of Artists, Prague on October 3-7, 1984; Schoeps MK-2; Sony Digital Tape Recorder modified by Tony Faulkner; Digital Editing: Sony DAE 1100; Studer SFC-16 sampling frequency converter

    Telarc is a surprise because most/all of its recordings, including this one, are DDD. And Telarc even goes so far as to document that its recordings do not pass through any "analog intersteps." Meanwhile, pre-emphasis typically was applied via an analog filter at the master tape A/D conversion stage. In this case, the pre-emphasis had to be applied upstream of the ADC at the time of recording. Or it was applied later in the digital domain -- if that were available in 1984-85. Or pre-emphasis has been set in error.

    I likely would not have caught the pre-emphasis flags at all on this disc if they were not in the TOC, thus displayed in dBpoweramp. I do manual checks of subcode with CUERipper only on discs known or suspected to have pre-emphasis. And I never previously associated Telarc digital recordings with pre-emphasis. Now, I have some qualms about the dozen or so other CBS/Sony, Matsushita, or Sanyo Japan for US or DADC early Telarc pressings that I already have ripped.

    AJ
     
  8. Y9771

    Y9771 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lithuania
    Just checked. Sorry, my memory deceived me, this CD certainly has no PE. Mine has matrix CDV 2325 2893 993 02 *. This is the second matrix, there is a small possibility that first matrix could have a different mastering, though most likely it doesn't.

    Now can anyone help me with the following? I need someone to check if these CDs have flags anywhere:

    1. Culture Club - Kissing To Be Clever - WG Blueface
    2. Heart - s/t 1985 - any pressing from 80s
    3. Reo Speedwagon - Wheels Are Turnin' - any first press

    My copies of these CDs have PE mastering but no flags, so I want to know if there are properly flagged pressings.
     
  9. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    Are you certain about Heart S/T? It is an ADD album.
     
  10. d.s.l.

    d.s.l. Forum Resident ^O;O^

    Location:
    London, England
    I have an early "Wheels Are Turning" with no pre-emphasis (checked w/ EAC earlier in this thread) Epic (EK 39593 / DIDP 020149 03 2A 03)

     
  11. Y9771

    Y9771 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lithuania
    Absolutely certain. I have UK pressing from 90s and it certainly has PE mastering.

    According to matrix yours is later pressing from 90s, so it might have PE removed. Mine is much earlier DADC pressing - DIDP 20149 141 (stamped "neat font" like on Japanese CBS/Sony pressings from 80s) with mould text - possible that it is from same 1984 - but maybe there's other pressing with flags.
     
  12. segue

    segue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hawai'i
    this thread is hilarious!
    :righton:
     
  13. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    I have an early Japan CSR of Wheels, no Pre-Emphasis. My old CD-Rom is able to detect SUBQ channel as well.
     
  14. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    It is, especially when members spend big bucks on early Floyd and Beatles and wonder why it sounds like crap when they just rip and play.
     
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  15. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Not sure how you can state definitively that they have PE mastering. You absolutely could say "they sound better to me with de-emphasis applied", but I'm not aware of any test that definitely shows a release has PE mastering other than what you are asking for, evidence of another release that does have PE flags that would have the exact same digital data.

    For that reason we keep this list to releases that have the flags only. I think it was proposed to have another thread to discuss "suspected missing PE flags" but I don't know if that ever got started.

    My Heart black triangle does not have PE.
    Nor does my made in Holland Kissing to Be Clever or my early US Wheels are Turnin'
     
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  16. hotsoup

    hotsoup Forum Resident

    Location:
    WA (USA)
    I agree.
     
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  17. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    When updating I'm sticking with the verified's. Some on that list were carry overs from like ten years ago, so some may not be accurate.
     
    d.s.l. likes this.
  18. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    :agree: When Steve H. and I were talking years back he told me that the recording itself was recorded bright and the MFSL is like this as well and why I had to reassess and add it back to my recommended list.
     
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  19. Y9771

    Y9771 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lithuania
    What you have should be the very first pressing of that title, so it probably never had flags.

    Well, 1984-1985 was still the time when pre-emphasis was used widely, and if releases from that time have that certain kind of sound (unlistenably bright without flags, but just OK with flags), I think we can safely assume they were recorded or mastered with PE. Engineers who work with sound are not deaf I think, they wouldn't intentionally make an unlistenably bright master. If CD pressings of some PE title never had flags, that's a different problem, and what I wanted to find out is specifically whether the very first pressings of those titles with same mastering had flags or not. Because I remember reading about cases where they "got lost" on some later pressings.

    Regarding masters that are just bright, a good example would be next Heart album, "Bad Animals". It is bright, but that brightness is not the ear-shredding kind of brightness, you can still turn up the volume and enjoy the listen.

    Black triangle has a different mastering, I had downloaded a rip to compare. It's different than EU/US CDP issues. If there were flagged discs with that CDP mastering, they should be pressings from 1985 or slightly later, I think?

    Kissing to be Clever Dutch pressing would be even later than my PDO UK from 1988, which already don't have flags. And that disc IS mastered with PE, in a certain interview Levine clearly said that, and that CDs were made without flags. So only pressing where I still think they could be is the first blueface.
    Also there is Japanese VDP from 1984 for this title, but someone wrote in this forum (don't remember which thread) that it has different mastering without PE. That is logical, considering that Victor CD issues never had PE.

    The whole point of buying and having PE CDs is to play them on actual CD player which de-emphasizes them analogically. If someone rips and de-emphasizes to listen on computer, then there is no use in owning actual disc with that mastering, if you never listen to it directly.
     
  20. Andreas

    Andreas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Why? If the PE CD contains the best mastering, I want that one to be part of my digital collection of ripped CDs, so of course I will rip , de-emphasize and listen to it that way.
     
    Yost likes this.
  21. Y9771

    Y9771 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lithuania
    But if you just listen to rips, you can as well just sell the CDs afterwards. Why own something you're not going to use.
     
  22. Veovis

    Veovis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Scandinavia
    Perhaps because it's illegal to keep copies after selling the original? I have ripped my 2000+ CD:s to hard drive and don't even have a CD-player connected to the system anymore. Still I would never even consider selling the discs, pre-emph or not.
     
    MartinGr likes this.
  23. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Because it is a thing to collect. Also, there have been many times I have had to re-rip something (not realizing it had PE or was HDCD the first time I ripped it etc.). And it feels like stealing to rip and and then sell the source (technically it may be, but yeah I realize there are no police checking).
     
  24. Andreas

    Andreas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    (1) I like collecting CDs. (2) In my living room, I still prefer CD player sound over the rip. (3) As pointed out, if I sell the CD, I might not have the legal right to keep the rip. (4) If ever my backups go lost I still have the original. (5) As mentioned above, software can fail and at a later time I might find out that my rip was not perfect. (6) Any software solution for de-emphasis can later turn out to be imprecise so I want to be in the position to correct this. (7) Details like matrices and mould codes are not easily documented with tags. (8) CDs might contain pre-gaps and indices which are lost with rips. (9) Selling the CD will get my a few $ but cost me time and trouble, even rare CDs - if they are not MFSL or DCC - are hard to sell for good money unless you are an established seller. (10) There are places that have a CD player but no device for digital playback, e.g. my father's car, or some friends' apartments.
     
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  25. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    Fixed that for you Andreas. :)
     

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