Pro-Ject Tube Box DS vs Pro-Ject Tube Box S*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by hfarrior3, Feb 16, 2018.

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  1. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Not wrong. The higher the gain of your phono - the higher the output from your phono into the line stage / integrated. The higher that output is, the less it needs to be amplified down stream. I'm a big proponent of higher gain at the phono stage because not only is the signal being amplified there, but it is also RIAA equalized to make it sound right. So, the way I see it, the stronger the signal out of the phono - the more you are listening to your cart/phono stage, the weaker the signal out of the phono - the more it needs to be amplified by your amp - the more you're listening to what you amp does with that signal.
     
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  2. octavius

    octavius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Slovakia
    Yes, I have to agree!! Yesterday I got two old tubes from east German production called RFT ECC83. I have installed them into the phono. I have to say the sound is more better then with stock tubes! The sound is more stronger and fuller lets say more 3D than before :)
     
  3. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I neglected to mention avanti1960. I always appreciate your input, too!
     
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  4. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    This may not have any particular relevance, but I had a Project Tube Box (one of the first models) in my secondary system for years. I wasn't unhappy with it. Eventually, it gave out and I got a Parks Budgie a few months ago with the normal gain and it is lightyears better than the Project ever was.
     
  5. hfarrior3

    hfarrior3 Worst pressing ever ... Thread Starter

    Location:
    Southern USA
    Thanks for the input. I've definitely decided on a Budgie, just don't know if I want to go with the normal gain to the hybrid. I'm going to do some critical listening this weekend; but I'm just concerned with the Hybrid being too punchy even though the specs suggest I might be better served with the Hybrid. Hopefully I can audition the hybrid before making a decision.
     
  6. hfarrior3

    hfarrior3 Worst pressing ever ... Thread Starter

    Location:
    Southern USA
    What amp do you use?
     
  7. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    I'm no help there as I just use that particular system for needle drops. It just goes in to the computer. Still sounds better lol.
     
  8. hfarrior3

    hfarrior3 Worst pressing ever ... Thread Starter

    Location:
    Southern USA
    Wait.. .what?
     
  9. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Yep. I have a few different vinyl systems. I've been at this for music/vinyl thing for awhile now.

    The system that does needle drops has the Budgie in it. It gives me a file I can look at and analyze. Besides, I can hear the difference. Trust me, the Budgie is a better amp than the Project which was your initial question.

    I know your current concern is to get the hybrid or original, but I think that you are finding that math and number crunching isn't giving you many real answers. You just have to listen to it and see if you like it. In this hobby, the fiddly numbers really don't mean a whole lot because everything interacts with everything else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
    WapatoWolf and hfarrior3 like this.
  10. If you want an affordable tube Phono preamp that sounds nice and it does it signal amp actually with tubes and not use them as output buffer, get a Yaqin MS-23B, I've used it for some months and it sounds great for the price.
    I know it actaully uses the tubes for amp the signal as on other forums (I don't know if I can mention them or not) it was stated by looking at the curcuit schematic that the tubes were indeed used for gain. I also made my own tests, I put two 12AT7 and gain (and volume) lowered, I then put two 12AU7 and gain lowered even more up to the point that I had the volume on my receiver quite high to be able to listen to music, not surprising as 12AU7s have a 20% of gain of a 12AX7 and 12AT7 have a 70% of gain of a 12AX7, if tubes were used as a buffer its gain wouldn't change regardless if you use 12AX7,12AT7 or 12AU7.
     
  11. hfarrior3

    hfarrior3 Worst pressing ever ... Thread Starter

    Location:
    Southern USA
    Yeah when I don't have anything to listen too I started to get into the weeds with the math and it was driving me crazy. I'm a visual learner so after a while I started to envision a river of energy that had to flow evenly between several dams (e.g. the preamp, amp, cart, speakers). Problems start to arise when one of the dams is either restricting too much energy or letting too much flow. I know that's an over simplification, but it helped me visualize what the numbers were doing.
     
  12. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I just hooked up the DS. How do you remove the tubes? They're seated almost completely inside the housing, and have a plastic guard snugly around them inside. I can't figure how to pry them out. Do I have to open the unit? Thanks.
     
  13. myles

    myles Argyle, before you ask ....

    Location:
    Plymouth, UK
    Oh man, been there! I levered them left, right, up and down slowly to free the pins from the housing. It takes some wiggling but be patient and you'll get it.

    I can't get the heat sinks off the valves, but that's another story.
     
  14. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Thanks, Myles. I tried again this morning, and managed to pry one out. Now, I can't get the plastic guard off the tube. Do you know if I can just put my preferred tubes in the Box without the guards, or do they perform an essential function, such as funneling the heat out of the Box?
     
  15. myles

    myles Argyle, before you ask ....

    Location:
    Plymouth, UK
    Yes, you can put valves in without the heatsinks. They do say using them lengthens the life of the valve but I'd take the chance!
     
  16. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Thing is, presuming you have a preamp, there is an input sensitivity spec. You don't want to blow that out.
     
  17. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Of course not, but IS is the lowest point at which the amp will deliver its rated power, more is still good, but within reason, of course. Consider this, the IS of an average mid-fi amp/receiver is about 500 mV (1/2 V), but the output of an average CD player is 1V - 2V. If that doesn't blow the amp, the output from the phono will not, either. However, the output from the phono at or above the amp's IS will result in richer, fuller sound from your vinyl playback as opposed to a weaker output, which will sound thinner.
     
  18. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Besides, if you meant preamp/power amp combination, then I don't think the IS is a big factor on the incoming end of the preamp. The preamp's sole purpose is to take incoming signal and bringing it up to line level, from there it goes to the power amp, and that has IS as a factor, but most of the time the signal coming into the power amp is at line level already, after being processed by preamp.

    You absolutely can run your phono straight into the power amp, skipping the preamp. But, in that case, you absolutely want to make sure that the output from your phono is at least at or above the power amp's input sensitivity. If your power amp's IS is, say 500 mV - then a combination of a 5 mV cartridge and 40 dB gain phono stage will accomplish the job just fine. The question remaining is only in the volume control, which most phono's lack, but some have.

    Case in point - my desktop setup: the combination of AT7V cartridge of 5 mV output with Parasound ZPhono with 40 dB gain give me 500 mV output from the phono, I have that running straight into Audioengine HD-3 powered speakers, with a built-in 50 WPC power amp of 500 mV input sensitivity. No preamp in between (so the signal is NOT at line level, and stays at only 500 mV), the speakers have a volume knob for control, works really well.
     
  19. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I see people using attenuation on their digital sources. My integrated has a 390 mV sensitivity, and I like to keep it right at or slightly below coming from the phono pre. That leaves a little headroom (if I'm using that term right). At any rate, I find a cartridge sounds much more textured and nuanced if the voltage coming into my integrated is not more than the input sensitivity, FWIW. Essentially, more gain is not always better, but then I'm more sensitive to this than some.
     
  20. sirmikael

    sirmikael Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Same here, and I also came from the same Cambridge Azur 551p as the OP. It wasn't a world-changing difference, but it was very noticeable and I'm very happy with the upgrade.
     
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  21. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    We're all different. I like mine at or slightly above the IS. In fact, as you said, some people use attenuation, others buy gizmos to increase voltage even from their line-level components. Decware, a very respectable name in the audio world, makes one:

    DECWARE all tube gain stage / purist preamp model ZSTAGE

    We all hear differently. My preference for more gain comes from hands-on experience - I used to run a Denon DL-103 (0.3 mV) into 60 dB gain of a phono pre to get only 300 mV output. The IS of the receiver was 500 mV. It sounded good, but certainly not as gorgeous as the cartridge is supposed to be able to produce, given all the superlative reviews of it. It sure sounds way better now, hooked to a head-amp with 26 dB gain, and from there to a phono with another 40 dB. The resulting output is 598 mV, the IS of the integrated it's fed to is 350 mV, the sound is gorgeous - to my ears, of course.

    Same with a Shure M97HE (4.0 mV). When run into 45 dB gain it sounds better to me than if run into 40/41 db. I don't have to turn the volume up as high on the amp with the higher phono output, and the overall sound is fuller, for lack of a better word.
     
  22. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    You definitely do need to lean on your primary amplification more with a close match to input sensitivity. I have several gain options, so I end up listening this or that way. I find a little under is not so satisfying, and a little more tends to add punch at the cost of depth, space and nuance in general. I'm listening about 1 dB hot to dead on. I get more midrange clarity this way while also making the drivers do their work.
     
  23. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Cheers, Myles!
     
  24. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    BTW, I'm really enjoying the DS so far. At first, I tried it w/ the included tubes, and I left all the jumpers off (except for the subsonic filter). The gain was way too high. It still sounded wonderful, except the treble was a bit brittle.

    Then, I put in Gold Lions, and put jumpers on the 50dB and 100pF (using Sumiko Bluepoint #2). Now, the gain is more reasonable, and the treble is smoother.

    Overall, the DS is much nicer than the S. I especially notice a huge soundstage and better transients.
     
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  25. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Could anyone provide some advice on whether an external phono amp would be worthwhile? I keep reading that if you aren’t willing to spend $1000 on one, don’t bother.

    Is it reasonable to think that a $500 Parks Audio would do a better job than the phono section of my $2000+ Musical Fidelity M5Si?
     
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