DCC Archive Q for Steve re: "Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Gershwin Songbook" and Otis Redding song

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Matt, Sep 21, 2001.

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  1. Matt

    Matt New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Illinois
    Hey Steve, I was wondering if you could give me some help.

    Awhile back, you mentioned how many of the Ella Fitzgerald songbooks on CD have various problems with them, all varying from album to album (some related to how it was recorded, others how it was mastered, etc.)

    I know someone who's got an older looking CD edition of Ella Fitzgerald Sings the George Gershwin Songbook, and apparently, Dennis Drake has been credited with the mastering. (They also make a note that not all the original master tapes were available in every case and therefore second-generation copies had to be used. ) Do you know how this edition holds up the other CD editions?

    Second question deals with the recording "I've Been Loving You Too Long" by Otis Redding...

    I listened to the song on three different CD's: the current "Otis Blue" done by Bill Inglot & Dan Hersch, "The Otis Redding Story" 3 CD set, and the "Dreams To Remember: Anthology" 2 CD set from 1998.

    I know two performances were cut for the mono and stereo versions...the mono recording on the "Otis Blue" CD is a different performance from the stereo recording on the "Otis Redding Story." But, I was surprised to find that the "Dreams" CD was a mono recording of the SAME performance used for the stereo recording on the "Otis Redding Story." Did they have two recorders going for this performance, or did they record this performance on a multi-track that was used to mix the song in stereo and mono? Just curious...

    P.S. How have you been this past week, Steve? Did you know anyone at the WTC, and if you did, are they okay?
     
    Matt, Sep 21, 2001
    #1
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Hi.

    Thanks for asking how I've been. A bad week for us all. All my friends in NYC are fine, but my wife lost a few of her east coast company people at the WTC. A tragedy, but it could have been much, much worse. Onward.

    Regarding the ELLA Gershwin, I honestly can't remember what Dennis Drake used in his version. I just remember that DCC rejected the tape sources as being too far removed from the sound of the original sessions for us. I think that Dennis used the Radio Recorders masters, but they just don't sound good due to how they were mixed. Too much echo, if I remember. I mean, totally over the top, totally wrecking the intimate sound of Ella's voice. But, to answer your question, I would pick up the latest edition if I were you. Phil S. found a bunch of Ella tapes that might not have been known in the 80's when Dennis did his version.

    Regarding Otis "Loving You Too Long", here is the deal. It gets confusing, so watch out.

    The original 45 RPM single version was recorded with a mono Ampex machine. I can't remember if it was recorded before, or after the other version. But, this is the version that historians say is the "keeper".

    At any rate, the OTHER version (the album version if you will), was recorded with the stereo two-track Ampex, in primitive "twin-track" stereo.

    With me so far? OK, here is where it gets confusing. The 45 RPM version master was cut out of the reel, used to cut the single record, and then, a mono copy sent to Atlantic, where it was stored on the 45 master reels, and therefore saved from the big fire. A mono dub (now third generation) was made from THAT dub for the mono LP version of "Otis Blue".

    The stereo version, recorded twin-track style on the Ampex two track machine, was sent to Atlantic, NY, where Tom Down REDUBBED IT AT ONCE, adding all that ugly treble boost you hear on every stereo version. The ORIGINAL TWO-TRACK Tape was filed at Atlantic as a "WORK PART" and was burned up in the fire.

    A MONO dub from Tom Dowd's squeeky EQ'd stereo tape was also made for some later (after "Otis Blue") Redding albums way back when Atlantic was re-releasing everything under the sun, and marked "mono master".

    So, unless one knows what one is looking for, it is easy to put the wrong version on a CD, especially if it (wrongly) marked master.

    That make sense?
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 21, 2001
    #2
  3. Matt

    Matt New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Illinois
    Man, so basically just about every mastering of that Redding song uses a dub? That's too bad.

    Thanks for all the help, Steve, I really appreciate it. I'm sorry that your wife lost some of her friends. It's going to be a long time before a lot us get over this; I know putting on some music or watching some comedy puts me in a good mood for awhile, but as soon as I switch those off, it's like everything slowly seeps back in. It's going to be awhile...
     
    Matt, Sep 21, 2001
    #3
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Thanks for your concern, my wife didn't lose friends, but co-workers can seem like a part of your family, no matter how large the company is. I think her company has thousands of employees; a few less after last week. It could have been a lot worse for them if the strikes had happened the day before. Thank God it didn't.

    Regarding Otis Redding, the 3 CD Atlantic set is good to hang on to, and the Stax box is good to have for all the mono versions. I'm sure Bill Inglot found every correct mono master for the Stax box, even the ones outside of Atlantic. Those are the Otis performances I like. I also think you should seek out "The Ultimate Otis Redding" that came out on Warner Special Products back in the 1980's. It has the best sounding (un-futzed with) versions of many of Otis' masters. Check out their version of "I Can't Turn You Loose", one of the few examples of an "un-retouched" original Stax twin-track stereo recording. Worth seeking out just for that song.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 21, 2001
    #4
  5. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    So, that is why all the Otis Redding tracks I have heard are either kind of muddy, or kind of harsh and hissy overkill, but nothing "just right"?

    Was the muddiness the result of bad engineering, or what?
     
    Angel, Sep 21, 2001
    #5
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Well, Angel, the muddy sound was a by-product of many things. The sound of the Stax console, the way the drums were miked (behind a blanket, as not to overpower the other instruments), and the general state of their playback monitor.

    Trust me, on an old Altec 604, the Stax sound is PERFECT! On anything else, there is too much bass, the drums sound like thumping suitcases, etc. But, that is the Stax Sound, love it or hate it.

    Obvious that Tom Dowd hated it, because he redubbed as much of it as he could in New York, adding a lot of treble, and getting rid of a lot of the bass.

    So, to answer your question, yes, that is why there are "muddy" original Stax recordings and "tinny, hissy" Stax dubs (usually the twin-track stereo stuff), but nothing in-between. At least not until they had the Ampex four-track machine installed.

    Make sense?
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 21, 2001
    #6
  7. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    Wow, we must be on line at the same time. Neat.

    Yes it makes sense to me now.

    One more question. On "I Can't Turn You Loose", on the Ultimate Otis Redding CD (my husband has it), it seems that this stereo version has not been tampered with. Why is that?
     
    Angel, Sep 21, 2001
    #7
  8. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    Semi-related: Steve, why do the drums sound like thumping suitcases on some of the early Elvis stuff? I can't remember which tracks in particular, but it's evident on the first few tracks of the DCC 24K Hits CD. Thanks.
     
    Unknown, Sep 21, 2001
    #8
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Angel, "I Can't Turn You Loose" was only released in stereo AFTER Otis died. This was also well past the "Tom Dowd Redubbing Everything" phase at Atlantic. So, this song (and many others) escaped the wrath of Atlantic NY and retained the true mellow (some say muddy) Memphis "Stax Sound".

    Next time you play this song, really crank it. The louder it is, the better it sounds, like every Stax master that hasn't been re-eq'd!

    Listen to Otis tonight, and forget about last weeks horror.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 21, 2001
    #9
  10. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Patrick,

    Drums on some recordings from the past really were suitcases instead of drums. Sometimes they just thought it sounded better. This is a tradition that goes all the way back to Jelly Roll Morton recordings on Victor in the late 1920's. A real snare drum would just distort, but a nice suitcase sounds much better. Try it yourself, and you'll understand one of the secrets of the early Sun Records sound!

    A lot of early R&B and Rock records (heck, even The Beatles "Get Back") have some t-shirt or cloth over the snare drum to give it a muted sound.....A badly recorded snare can sound really ugly. At Stax, they just wanted a "thwack"....
     
    Steve Hoffman, Sep 21, 2001
    #10
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Quoth Steve
    Hmm...I *still* take issue with your "re-dubbed" scenario. All the Stax stuff I've heard (from that period) sounds more or less the same to me - I've never noticed any recordings being muddy while others are tinny. They *all* have plenty of hiss. The 4-track stereo stuff sounds pretty much like the twin-track stereo stuff, other than the different stereo imaging. Compare "Soothe Me" (twin-track) to most of the other stuff on Double Dynamite (4-track) - exact same sound. Bassy (I don't think I've heard a Stax song that ISN'T), rich, hissy...

    FWIW, up until spring of 1965, Stax only had a mono Ampex machine. The mono versions of Respect and I've Been Loving You Too Long were cut during this period. Right before Otis Blue was recorded Tom Dowd installed an Ampex stereo machine. Both tracks were re-cut in stereo during the album sessions (which - obviously - were a few months after the single sessions).

    The mono machine was in-line with the stereo, so there should be separate mono and stereo session tapes for everything cut during this period. I believe they were even running the mono machine when they got the 4-track - Ron Capone (Stax engineer) is quoted as saying that Jim Stewart didn't want anyone listening to the 4-track, just the mono.

    Another tidbit - originally Stax only had 2 4-channel mixes, wired together. When they got the stereo machine they wired one mixer to one channel and the other to the other channel. That's why everything is hard left/right.

    Also, the speaker (singular) they used for playback for quite a long time was a "Voice Of The Theatre" job - huge ****er. Probably 6 or 7 feet tall, total.
     
    lukpac, Sep 21, 2001
    #11
  12. Evan

    Evan Senior Member

    Location:
    Stennis Space Center, MS
    Anyone know which is the best copy of "Otis Blue" that one can buy? The Atlantic disc, the Rhino disc, or the MFSL disc? :confused:
    Thanks!
     
    Evan, Sep 27, 2001
    #12
  13. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I don't have the MFSL, but the Sundazed vinyl sounded fantastic. The Atlantic/Rhino I thought was very fine too. The Sundazed doesn't have a hard edge to it, smooth and clean.
     
    Sckott, Sep 27, 2001
    #13
  14. Evan

    Evan Senior Member

    Location:
    Stennis Space Center, MS
    Thanks! I have seen the MFSL version for about 20 to 30 dollars. My question is "Is it worth it? Or should I stick to the Rhino or Sundazed?" Anyone? :confused:
     
    Evan, Sep 28, 2001
    #14
  15. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Another question - are *any* of those versions in stereo? I know the Rhino isn't. That was the first Otis album to be recorded in stereo, after all...
     
    lukpac, Sep 28, 2001
    #15
  16. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Hi Luke and Evan,'
    Luke, the MFSL is in mono and Evan I'll post again later in regards to sound quality (after the wife leaves). [​IMG]
     
    Dave, Sep 28, 2001
    #16
  17. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Evan,
    The MFSL has the hiss, very subdoed though compared to the Stax recordings. I don't know if it's recorded this way originally but the bass guitar seems a little heavy in a few of the cuts. Much like the Sundazed according to Luke, very smooth. The thing that totally blew me away was the vocals. You can hear Otis taking breaths as well as it sounds like he's in the room with you (room sounds and everything). Hope this helps ya! [​IMG]
     
    Dave, Sep 28, 2001
    #17
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Huh?!
     
    lukpac, Sep 28, 2001
    #18
  19. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    I think he meant Scott.
     
    Unknown, Sep 29, 2001
    #19
    Simon A likes this.
  20. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Sorry Luke I did mean Scott. ;)
     
    Dave, Sep 29, 2001
    #20
  21. Evan

    Evan Senior Member

    Location:
    Stennis Space Center, MS
    Thanks! I will have to get the Sundazed and burn a CD with it so I can enjoy it in the car and at work. :)

    Evan
     
    Evan, Sep 30, 2001
    #21
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