Question for Steve et al Regarding Columbia Mono vs. Stereo Mixes

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Another Side, Apr 29, 2005.

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  1. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I have been enjoying in the last few months my resdiscovery of jazz and vocal LP's (vinyl) from the late fifties and early sixties. My last purchase a minty Love is the Thing in glorious mono. I have been buying almost entirely mono releases since Steve mentioned in a Sinatra thread that Capitol (and Columbia and Blue Note as well) did not make a real effort to record for stereo. For example in the case of an album such as Sinatra's Come Dance with Me the stereo master was made by mixing live using only three microphones! The mono master by contrast was also made live but in a separate console and using far more microphones.

    My question is, in the case of Columbia's jazz and vocal releases, when did they begin recording for stereo with a more meticulous approach, in other words using more microphones? And once they began to do that, how did the way they made mono mixes change?
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    1958 is the year that Columbia started recording stereo in earnest. REMEMBER: Columbia stereo LP's from 1958-64 have a wicked treble boost that can kill you if you have a "modern" system. The mono LP's don't seem to have that problem. If it wasn't for that, I'd say collect the Columbia LP's in stereo from that era..
     
  3. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    So in other words, the problem with Columbia stereo LP's is different than that of the Capitol LP's. It was the treble boost that made the stereo LP's wacky not the way the recorded them. Fortunately my system is not so modern but it is 1970's vintage - both receiver and turntable.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You have that right; Capitol's problem was mic placement and Columbia's was treble tweaking. At least in the case of Capitol you can hear the performance from a different perspective which is kind of neat; the Columbia stuff just sounds doggone bad sometimes which is a shame because the 3-track original tapes sound wonderful.
     
  5. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    That makes sense. Recently on a whim, I just bought a mono Tony Bennett "When Lights Are Low" even though I already had the stereo LP, and I was shocked by how much better it sounded (it was released in May 1964), so it made me think that I should go back and get mono LP's to replace all my stereo Tony Bennett LP's. This gives me a rule of thumb for doing that.
     
  6. Paul G

    Paul G Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    I recently picked up what is at least a play-grade VG+ mono Columbia six-eye Dave Brubeck Time Out and it has plenty of treble -- and it sounds great. If the stereo LP has more, it must really sound awful.

    Paul
     
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host



    Remember, in those "live" union days, the studios recorded the three-track and mono tape machines at the same time (INSTEAD OF MAKING A MONO MIX FROM THE THREE-TRACK) so the mono version was a first generation live mix with echo and was essentially finished when the tape stopped. The stereo version was mixed (or as they used to say "reduced") from the three-track tape, losing another generation of tape and having another layer of echo and EQ added during the mixing stage. The mono album master was just made by splicing the first generation mono tape in the right order, no redubs or extra anything added. The mono versions usually sounded "tamer". RCA was really guilty of that as well..
     
  8. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    When did they start making the mono masters from the multi-tracks rather than making them live, Steve?
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Only when things like overdubbing started. No point in making a mono tape if they were only recording a backing track for the Byrds or something. Most studios stopped recording the mono first generation tape around 1964 or so I guess. Forum members MMM or namretsam would know the exact date I guess. Of course Motown always mixed the mono from another source as did Beatles recordings, etc.
     
  10. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Thanks, Steve. Fascinating as always. :agree:
     
  11. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Not sure if this is totally true, but I've had 2 6-eye Time Outs, both of them had a very mechanical sounding "splatter" for treble. Me thinks they were using a type of simple compression past 11k? This could be the same over-baked treble Steve talks about too. The high hat sounded splashy like a maraca or a baby rattle. Not the way a high-hat sounds at all.
     
  12. Brian Cruz

    Brian Cruz Forum Resident

    Location:
    Franklin, TN
    So which years was this process used? (Oops. I just read the above posts.:whistle: )

    :edthumbs:
     
  13. bruckner1

    bruckner1 New Member

    Location:
    Menasha, WI
    I never liked the Brubeck Columbias in stereo, with Dave's piano in the right channel (which sometimes sounded WAY off to the right.) I've been slowing collecting the monos and cherishing those I already have. They do sound better, if only to get rid of the wacky stereo placing of the instruments. I became a fan of Dave's around 1975, when all of the monos (and a lot of the stereos) were history.
     
  14. peter

    peter Senior Member

    Location:
    Paradise
    Great thread!!

    I recently picked up DEAD MINT US stereo copies of Nat King Cole's "Wild Is Love" LP and Harry Belafonte's "Blues, Ballads & Boasters."

    I will listen to these with a much more critical ear, thanks to this thread.
     
  15. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I just saw those two at 101 Music just yesterday. That wasn't you I run into? :D
     
  16. peter

    peter Senior Member

    Location:
    Paradise
    Small freaking world! But no, I got mine elsewhere....
     
  17. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Jacks, Grooves? :D

    Anyway. The Living Stereo stuff is usually pretty good, so I was surprised to hear Steve say that they futzed with the stereo master.
     
  18. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    When Lights Are Low was recorded at United in Las Vegas. My stereo LP sounds nice (1B/1A IIRC), though something gets a little funny in "I've Got Just About Everything". I've never heard the mono, except for the title track on a Columbia Special Products various artists compilation. It sounded OK there IIRC, but nothing special, though that wouldn't be the ideal source to listen to it either. That album is just fantastic.
     
  19. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Stereo mix was done after the fact, not "live" like the mono. They started with a 3 track, but then later mixed (reduced) that to 2.

    The 3 mics in the air was a very purist method of recording - sometimes it worked out better than others. At first, Capitol wasn't quite sure what the approach should be when making a stereo recording, or "binaural" as Capitol called it back in the day (even though it really wasn't). As John Palladino told me (and stated in Chuck Granata's Sessions With Sinatra) there was a question of "what is stereo?".
     
  20. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Martin, my stereo copy is 1D/1E and it does sound quite nice, but the mono just has a more natural sound. I thought it was the mix, but I think it may be the treble boost on the stereo LP. Is there anything significant about its having being recorded at United in Las Vegas as opposed to at Columbia in New York?
     
  21. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    You and I have talked about this before, and I agree that sometimes the results are better than other times. Also sometimes the LP's just sound very different and it could be hard to think of one version as definitive. One example is Come Dance with Me. I like the way it sounds in stereo it has a nice deep sound. But in mono it's a completely different record. I like the mono better, but it's not like it's a slam dunk.
     
  22. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey

    Not sure. I just remembered seeing that credit for those tracks from that album on the box set. It is a little odd to me that it was recorded there, knowing how much Tony liked recording with Frank Laico at Columbia. Maybe he was playing in Vegas and he wanted to record while he was out there? I don't know...
     
  23. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    It's funny on the box set, they talk up the When Lights Are Low album quite a bit, but Columbia or Sony have never seen fit to release it on CD. It's my favorite of his albums.
     
  24. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I agree. There was supposed to be a CD a few years ago - I believe it was remixed, mastered, etc., but never got released.

    There was a JPN CD years ago. Probably hard to find now.
     
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