Question regarding new releases on vinyl

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by ClassicRockTragic, Sep 14, 2014.

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  1. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    My guess is that it doesn't work that way. What's more likely is that the source master is 24/96, for example, then that's used for the vinyl pressing. But for the CD it has to be downsampled to 16/44.1k at some point, no choice given the redbook standard. So the two formats could actually be different, even with the same master.

    But if the vinyl is cut from a redbook CD, that's a different story of course. The problem is trying to find out which labels do the former, versus the latter. As for DR ratings, from my experience you can't really go by those anyway as vinyl rips are going to have different ratings than the CD, even if it sounds the same (stressing that in bold). I've even seen different DR ratings between two different rips from two different turntables, so I wouldn't use vinyl numbers as any indicator unfortunately.

    As to the OP's question: It depends. ;) Use vinyl reviews as your best guide, if you can find them.
     
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  2. ClassicRockTragic

    ClassicRockTragic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    Not obsessing , just tying to understand it, I have no real preference either way. Well maybe lean to vinyl just because it's got cooler packaging than CD.
     
  3. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Good way to put it Ben! :)
     
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  4. ClassicRockTragic

    ClassicRockTragic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    I am being sincere in my OP.

    I guess what I am trying to say is, if an new record is cut in the digital environment then does it makes more sense for it to be released in a digital format. Is the record just another way to sell it because people like records more than CDs.

    What got me to thinking about it was I was reading a thread about LZs Celebration day. A LOT of People were commenting now much better it sounded on Vinyl. This was recorded not that long ago, and would have been captured with modern recording technology. So I was trying to figure out why it would sound better on Vinyl. It sorta did not make sense to me.

    I am pretty new to all of this, I used to play for a living and did not listen to a lot of music when I was gigging. Now I have stopped I am rediscovering the joy I finding new music and listening to it.
     
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  5. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    There is no doubt, and every chance, that a digital mix mastered for CD will be different to one mastered for vinyl given vinyls limitations. Good luck finding out sometimes however. Its really as simple as that.
     
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  6. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Maybe the best way to test the waters would be to search the forum for one you may be interested in for reviews and maybe check the needle drop thread, lots of good examples you can hear and maybe request one your interested in :)
     
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  7. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    Unless the artist is specifically known for recording in analog, it's more likely than not that a modern vinyl release is going to be digitally sourced. So @the OP, I understand your concern. But again to reply to your question, that doesn't necessarily mean it makes more sense to purchase the CD.

    One of the nice things about modern vinyl releases is that you get a digital download at times, sometimes lossless. And sometimes even an audio CD in the packaging itself, like the last Neko Case LP for example. That way you can use that as a way to answer the question of whether or not it was worth buying the LP over the CD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2014
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  8. fluffskul

    fluffskul Would rather be at a concert

    Location:
    albany, ny
    Stadium Arcadium was recorded to tape I recall reading in other threads. So that doesn't really fit with the original question of most modern recordings being recorded digitally anyway. And also the mastering engineer for that particular project was top notch!
     
  9. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England

    99% of vinyl pressed in 2014 has been digitised in some way before it is cut, assuming decent recording, engineering and production as a given the sound of vinyl is all about the mastering, cutting and pressing quality, whether it has been digitised or remained 100% analogue is totally and absolutely irrelevant. There's a thread on totally analogue releases, I think they had come up with under twenty titles for the year so far that should give you an idea about just how purely analogue current vinyl is.

    Vinyl and CD are different formats, they sound different, some prefer one, some prefer the other, which is superior for any given recording is never a forgone conclusion and masters whether quarter inch analogue or high res digital generally sound entirely different from finished CDs and records anyway.
     
  10. ClassicRockTragic

    ClassicRockTragic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    I do take the point it has to be ok to begin with, if it sucks then it doesn't matter what it's on it is going to suck regardless of media.

    I noticed that when I mixed bands live..... good bands were a pleasure and they would have sounded fine with just a vocal PA behind them, bad bands were another matter, no matter what you did they still sucked.

    And I guess thats the case with the producing and engineering, if that is not done well then its all over.
     
  11. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    i don't think that is even close to accurate. A lot of vinyl is reissues and a lot of reissues are cut all analog. What percentage I don't know but I'm guessing it's more than 1%
     
  12. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Really, cut with tape delay stages rather than digital, I really doubt it, just look at the AAA thread to see people struggle to find all analogue releases, also these days a lot of vinyl is actually new music rather than reissues, this isn't the 1990s new titles usually get vinyl, two or three audiophile reissue labels charging $50 an LP and pressing up a couple of thousand of each title are definitely below 1% of the market.
     
  13. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    I am not implying that ANY vinyl is actually cut from the downsampled 16/44 CD master. I would assume that the vinyl release for any given modern release is (should be) cut from the highest res files available - like the 24/96 master.

    What I refuse to believe is that ANY modern vinyl (Unless VERY clear provenance is given) has a "special" non-limited unique master that is prepared just to cut the vinyl and then is never shared with the outside world in any way after the vinyl is cut.

    This myth seems way too far fetched and ass backwards given the general lack of care from a typical record company. If they can cut a vinyl record using the same DR5 hi res master and then sell it to you for 40 bucks - they will do that every single time.

    VP
     
  14. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    +1.

    This is my thought as well. All AAA production is much to time consuming and expensive to be used on anything but a very few select releases (Beatles Mono Box being a very big one).

    VP
     
  15. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    I think you are grossly underestimating the amount of all analog vinyl being cut. Over the past 10 years I have probably bought somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 titles. And I haven't bought everything by a long shot.
     
  16. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    How did/do you verify that these 500 titles are all analog source?

    AAA is a very rare bird these days.

    VP
     
  17. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    I agree, and I'd be very surprised if there were such a thing as a special "vinyl-only" master (and, if so, I would guess that it would at least be advertised as such. Why do it and then not advertise it?).

    I just don't believe that most LP's are cut from redbook CD masters. At least I hope not!
     
  18. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    This is what the folks producing these LPs claim. I suppose they could be lying.
     
  19. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Actually it has been advertised a number of times.
     
  20. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    Show me. You seem to claim to be in the know but have nothing in the way of proof.
     
  21. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    On yeah? Try cutting a lacquer from something mixed for CD and keeping the stylus in the groove. Better be prepared for a heap of returns. You simply can't jam all that low end on a record.Or high end for that matter through a cutting head without turning it to ash. It just ain't that simple most of the time.
     
  22. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    Neither is hiring a good engineer to spend lots of time (and money) creating a "special" master for the vinyl release.

    Again - I WANT to be really wrong here and have feel good about buying new vinyl releases - but unless somewhere, somehow I can get definitive proof that a typical mainstream CD release (Not an audiophile release like MFSL etc) uses "this" master and the vinyl release (Or hi res) used "that special one" over there - I have to continue to assume that ALL formats come for the same (usually lame) source - which is sad in most cases.

    And - if record companies ARE producing nice dynamic DR10-12 masters for their vinyl - why not give us the opportunity to purchase that DR12 master for the hi-res download (if applicable).

    It makes NO sense to not to offer it since if - what people continue to "claim" in here is correct - a special vinyl master should be kick ass and much better to listen to than the typical brickwalled CD master.

    VP

    PS: I wish someone really "in the know" (like Steve) could swing into this thread and offer some clear insight whether or not a typical record company IS or is not using a special master for a modern vinyl release. Just so we can get a sense of what's really going on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  23. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    We use the same high resolution masters for vinyl and CD, they are either 24/96 flat transfers from what are generally 1st generation 15ips quarter inch reels, DAT tape, (not 100% sure these are 24/96 or just 16/44 or 16/48), or for new recordings 24/96 files. Our mastering engineer will take the 24/96 files and create separate masters for CD and vinyl, the vinyl may also have different tracks and even running order than the CD, sometimes we use a different engineer to master and cut the vinyl, but he will use the same high res master. I don't think I've ever asked about the digital releases as it doesn't interest me, I assume it's the same as the CD master, but maybe there's a separate master for digital as well. In addition to the CD and vinyl being different masters if the cutting engineer isn't the same person who mastered the vinyl he will also make decisions that effect the final sound and can lead to it sounding different from the vinyl master although hopefully not. There are various technical reasons why a CD master may not be suitable for vinyl without modification, the mastering engineer will make different choices depending on the format and it's strengths and limitations.

    I've thought about whether or not we could do 100% analogue vinyl, even assuming we used a lathe with analogue tape delay there is the issue of the 1st generation tapes, in our particular world these have rarely been stored in optimal conditions and being from the 1970s and 1980s always need baking and sometimes they are in a poor condition. I guess the only way we could go all analogue would be to dub the original master to a new tape and use that as a production master without any of the issues the originals have, to be honest I can't see the point, it would make life more complicated, wouldn't sound better than the digital transfer and would cost a lot more. On a side note I'm a fan of 1 bit DSD recording and have already discussed getting my own personal DSD copy of future transfers.
     
  24. kevintomb

    kevintomb Forum Resident


    Coloration and changes that vinyl applies to sound are pretty well known.....Some really like the changes.
     
  25. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident

    Dubmart,

    Thanks so much for the insight and clearing up a couple of questions. Sounds like yours is more the reissue business if I read it right...using 1st gen reels etc.

    One thing you do not allude to is whether or not your engineers create a much louder brickwalled master for CD vs a tasty dynamic mix for vinyl. I guess my idea of "separate masters" is not simply creating different running orders, different tracks etc using the same orginal source - rather creating one master that is compressed (Dynamic range compression) for CD (and possibly hi-res) and another that is non-limited for a vinyl cut.

    And appreciate the comments on AAA vinyl. That bears out my understanding that it is not something that is very common these days due to the complexity of "getting it right".

    If you could offer us any more info on whether or not a "unique compressed" master is done for CD vs one that is not for vinyl - that would be valuable to know.

    Cheers!

    VP
     
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