R-2R Ladder DACs (in production 2015)

My gut instinct at this point is that there are exceedingly well implemented DACs of all designs. Thinking of Resonessence Labs, for example.

 

I haven't heard the Concero, but I've owned several Sabre-based DACs and prefer 1704-based DACs. That's just my opinion, of course, and not everyone will share it. But I also want to make clear that I didn't go into my DAC exploration as an R2R fanboy. My preference is really just the result of buying and selling a lot of DACs over the past few years to get a sense of what I like.

 

That's a fun physical design. Reminds me of the Sutherland phono stages that are basically two distinct boxes, one with the power supply and one with the guts, with a kind of i-beam connecting them.

 

New Schiit announced today. The Gungnir DAC is now available in a multibit version. Gungnir Multibit for $1249.
http://schiit.com/products/gungnir

 

That's pretty cool. I'm going to transition from physical disc to digital transport within a year or two. I expect that the transport will run a few grand, so I might end up transitioning to a lower price USB DAC before trying to stretch for the likes of Lapizator or Totaldac. Seems to me that the competition will be even more fierce at under $3,000 by then!

 

The Gungnir Multibit was just announced today. We'll have to wait for some reviews. They held a SchiitShow style meet in LA to announce the new DAC and some other new products. There will be some more info and reviews form the meet available shortly.

The Gungnir Multibit is using 4 18-bit Analog Devices DAC chips. The Yggy uses 4 20-bit Analog Devices DAC chips.

I like where this is going. There's rumors of a multibit version of the Bifrost DAC in the works.

 

The Gungir multibit uses the same filter (implemented on the AD SHARC) and the same AD5781BRUZ chips (4) as the Yggy.

 

Slight correction jh, from the "upgrade" section of Schiit's website on the Gungnir:

In actuality, it's a lot like Yggdrasil, using the same proprietary closed-form digital filter and precision multibit DACs. In this case, the DACs are AD5781BRUZ rather than Yggy's AD5971BRUZ, but there's still 4 of them for true hardware balancing, and they're followed by discrete JFET buffers for simplicity and excellent performance.

So same "burrito" filter, subtly different AD chips although I am admittedly confused. In one sentence they say they use the same precision multibit DACs but then say they use different chips from AD. Either way, there you have it.

 

The Gungnir Multibit uses four Analog Devices AD5781BRUZ 18-bit chips.
The Yggy uses four Analog Devices AD5791BRUZ 20-bit chips.
Both use the same (similar) closed-form, DSP-based, 18,000-tap filter.

 

I think, in many respects, this is even more crucial than the similar DAC chips. Mike Moffat's filter is the major point of difference (the magic sauce), it seems, from what I've read.

 

Where is the sentence that Schiit says that they use the same AD chips in both the Yggdrasil and the Gungnir? I found the one where they say "The analog section is completed with discrete JFET buffers and summers, the same as Yggdrasil."

 

Just to clarfy, quoted from the Schiit Gungnir FAQ section:

So what’s the real answer? How is Gungnir Multibit half the price of Yggdrasil?
Easy. It’s a simpler DAC. The power supply has no choke-input, shunt-regulated stage like in Yggdrasil, the chassis and construction more streamlined, we’re using more surface-mount parts in the analog section, and (most importantly), we’re using 18-bit AD5781BRUZ D/A converters, rather than the mind-blowingly expensive AD5791s we use in Yggdrasil. However, the completely insane, closed-form, DSP-based, 18,000-tap filter remains in Gungnir Uber.

 

From my post: In actuality, it's a lot like Yggdrasil, using the same proprietary closed-form digital filter and precision multibit DACs.

I think this is simply a misfire on their part in terms of wording - the AD chips we're all talking about ARE the DAC chips, right? So they are different, yet the above sentence states they are the same?

 

Schiit seem to be clear enough about it on their website. Where is the misfire? Where do they say the AD DAC chips are the same?

 

Post #87 above quotes the FAQ, which should clear up any confusion irrespective of any other descriptions on the site.

I wonder if Moffat will rather quickly improve upon the Yggy?

Did anyone read their Schiit Happened book?

 

I'm pleased that Schiit is selling a $500 upgrade board for existing Gungir owners. I've always been skeptical of "future proof" upgradable gear because it seems the upgrades either never actually happen or are priced so high as to make it pointless.

I wonder if BiFrost will get an upgrade as well, or if its not really robust enough for this?

 

Modular designs can make "future proof" something more than marketing. I could see buying a DAC and sending it back two or three times over ten years to keep the hardware as relevant as possible. Software enhancements are nice, but most DACs will need actual hardware improvements over time. Though it's not R-2R, the Bricasti M1 is an example where owners benefited from updates in rather quick succession.

 

Bifrost will almost certainly get a multibit upgrade. Prototypes exist, people (outside of Schiit) have heard them and the intent is to go to production. Only a matter of time I would think...

 

I ordered a Gungnir Multibit yesterday. Seems like the most cost-effective way to sample R-2R sound (Yggdrasil is beyond what I'd like to have invested in a DAC).

My current DAC (Bryston BDA-2) is pretty good, so I plan to have a nice, lengthy comparison to see which one I keep.

 

I wonder how good Bryston's DSP ("filtering") is? It may come down to that aspect since the Gungnir is not NOS. Of course, there's so much more than even that going on beyond the ladder versus delta sigma aspect (power supplies, word clock, analog stage). Anyhow, the Yggy is priced closer to your BDA-2 isn't it? If you are impressed by the Gungnir, then expect to be peer pressured!

 

It is, though I bought the BDA-2 used for significantly less than original price (which isn't likely to happen with an Yggy any time soon). I've seen BDA-2s on the secondary market for less than what I paid for the GMB yesterday.

I've owned a standard Gungnir in the past and quite enjoyed it (only selling it due to financial difficulties after a natural disaster). I don't think the BDA-2 was a huge improvement, though I didn't have both at the same time for comparison. It'll be sitting below a Ragnarok on my rack, so if I like the sound and my OCD kicks in I might end up going Yggy just to match.

 

There's an Yggy up for sale on AA for $2100 inculding shipping.

 

Peer. Pressure.

Totaldac is up next in the R-2R list. Along with the MSB, the totaldac line of DACs is designed for very little, if any, compromise.

 

I spoke with the importer of the totaldac and he said they compared just the entry level totaldac (which is still pretty expensive though) to the top of the line Audio Note DAC (somewhere around level 4-5 can't remember the exact level) and to which also cost somewhere between $30 - $40K. Supposedly the totaldac was better on every level and left the AN owner shaking his head in disbelief. He mentioned that the AN owner was especially concerned with how noisy his AN DAC was in comparison to the totaldac. So the AN owner purchased the totaldac on the spot and quickly put his AN up for sale.

He is an importer of the totaldac ~ which you could expect a certain level of bias, but I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during that shootout!

 

I've read this before, but who knows what's what. With that said, I'm an Audio Note skeptic especially as it pertains to digital. I'm not going to be impressed by any given expertly designed hi-end DAC beating theirs.