R.E.M. Automatic for the People - Bad Pressing?

First, thank you for this opportunity. Joe Bennett told me about this forum because of a thread about his Sparkletones. Then I found out what a great resource this is for music.

My question is this: I bought a new copy of R.E.M.’s Automatic for the People a few months ago. When I played it (on my Rega P2 ‘table), the sound was noticeably “wobbly”; the piano on Nightswimming sounded like an old upright piano, or old silent movie piano. I thought it might be the turntable, so I replaced the belt, but that wasn’t it. Plus, all my other records sounded fine (such as Bowie’s Changes, a good pop/rock piano example, and Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata). Then, I got a new Pro-ject Debut III for my little 78 collection. Same weird sound. My wife is a big R.E.M. fan; she commented on how bad it sounded, too. I played the CD – noticeable difference. And we’re no audiophiles; we just listen to a lot of music all different formats. I don’t have the sophisticated ears or systems a lot of you have.

So, was this a bad pressing? If so, how? I’ve heard pops, clicks and scuffs on brand new records for years, but nothing like this! (Like many here, I stopped buying vinyl when CD’s came out, but have started buying used and new vinyl this year, upgraded my system, bought a Nitty Gritty cleaner, thanks to info on this forum).

I took it back to the store, an independent music store that I love. They gave me another copy, but it must be from the same pressing, because it was the same bad sound. I felt really bad taking it back because they said they can’t get reimbursed from the label and they just had to eat the cost! That’s not fair, is it? I wish I had some way to ask the label (Warner Bros.) and compare it with a known good copy. Is there no method for feedback to Warner Bros.?

 

Is this the German pressing?

 

Sounds like an off-center pressing.

 

This is just a regular, domestic pressing, as far as I know. Only $8.00 new, so not an audiophile type, heavy gram pressing.

My experience with off-center pressings is a more slow modulation of a sustained chord (like the ending of Honky Tonk Women), part of the charm of vinyl. The sound I'm talking about is a faster vibration of the tone, if that's the right terminology. Also, visibly I don't see the tone arm moving in and out. I got a new pressing of a Southern Culture on the Skids album and it has that slow modulation and is visibly off center. Same price point of vinyl.

Anything's possible, though. I'm still open to suggestions and/or recourse with the record label (if they care). I would think it would hurt vinyl sales in independent stores if they can't be reimbursed for defective vinyl (if this is indeed defective).

 

"Wow" and "flutter" are the technical terms; wow is what you get with off centre pressings; flutter refers to rapid fluctuations in speed, as you appear to be getting here.

Sounds to me as though something was mechanically wrong at the cutting stage. Do both sides of the LP do this?

 

Flutter would appear to be the case, then. Always heard "wow and flutter"; never fully understood the distinction.

Both sides have this problem, but it is most obvious in Nightswimming because of the sustained piano chords. Rock can cover up sins of pressing, but not in this case.

Wish I had another vinyl copy to compare; I have read in this forum how great a good vinyl copy of Automatic sounds. Wonder if anybody bought a similar pressing after hearing how much better vinyl sounds than a CD? They would be sorely disappointed, but might not know the difference.

Not that it matters, but I wonder if Automatic was digitally mastered?

 

I had the same problem with a copy of automatic that i bought 4 years ago. It was pressed off centre. The effect on the sound got progressively worse towards the inner grooves.

 

Btw i think automatic was an all digital recording.

 

Hmmm...i seem to recall reading it was a 24 track analog recording. I'd have to dig up the source.

 

Pretty sure it was mastered only to digital.

 

At least somebody else had a similar problem. There can't have been that many pressings of this title; wonder if Warner Bros. knows or cares?

If, however, this was digitally mastered, is there a point in me pursuing a quality vinyl copy? I've read differing opinions here, but these differ:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=90435
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-53367.html

Or is there a definitive answer?

 

I know the German 180 gr version is better than the US version. As far as assumed digital master on vinyl, yes I am one of those that believe that it can be better. If you accept that remastering is important, then the remastering that would occur in the transfer would be important. Moreover, the medium itself lends itself to a fuller and more musical sound. This is in general and takes many different assumptions in level of equipment. A good cd player can sound as good as a good vinyl rig. The problem is that most people have never listened to a $25k turntable versus a $25k cd player. The assumptions that are made and passed along on this site tend to center around the lower priced versions of each and the turntable will tend to win at that level. There are several digitally sources lp's that have won great acclaim throughout this website and the world, so digital equals bad is pretty wrong and short-sighted.

 

I have a regular domestic version that I bought a couple years ago. Listened to it yesterday and I didn't hear any of the effects that you are talking about. FWIW, the runoff on mine (side 1) is "45055-A-SR1-DMM TD Precision." Curious if they are from the same batch. I wouldn't think there would be too many pressings of this title, but I could be wrong.

The "DMM" would explain why the sound is a bit on the thin side.

One other thing to check -- look at the smoothness (or lack thereof) on the "shiny" part of the vinyl (the runoff area or the outermost area). Does it look very smooth, or is it slightly ripply (for lack of a better term)? I have seen sometimes where LPs look as if they didn't cool properly after pressing and this affects the sound, usually in the form of general record noisiness and some distortion on playback. Wondering if your issue isn't some variant of this. And part of the reason I mention this is that my copy of AFTP doesn't look completely smooth -- it's possible that certain copies of this pressing are worse than others.

 

My copies are sitting at the record store, now - I could probably get the data from them. Truly unlistenable so I didn't even want them, and I'm not too picky. Their vinyl guy said he'd play it on his home TT; I'm curious what he says. If it was only on one of my TT's, I'd suspect it, but it was on two of mine & two different amps.

The sound I'm trying to describe isn't distortion or noise. The music itself was wobbly, most obvious on Nightswimming. The best way I could describe the intro was as played on an old upright, slightly out of tune piano. Awful.

And I'm definitely not slamming digital in general; I need it in my car. I just wondered if objectively there was any point in buying digitally mastered vinyl. Maybe it's not objective. If SH describes it as a photo of a xerox of a photo, what's the point? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding his point.

 

This is definitely not happening on my copy. It's not the greatest slab of vinyl I've ever heard, but it doesn't sound like there's anything really wrong with it.

In many cases, there's not going to be much of a sonic advantage to buying vinyl of a digital recording. But then we're all down to mastering again -- was the vinyl mastered from higher resolution (say 24/96) than Redbook? Was it not brickwalled? Was it done with care?

I have vinyl from digital sources that I enjoy sonically more than their CD counterparts. Sometimes the CD is better. And then there are some that it doesn't seem to matter all that much.

As for AFTP, the DVD-A is my preferred version.

 

Good to know there are decent copies out there; the local record store wouldn't order another one for me (when I said "Can you..." the guy said "No, I'm not ordering another one!" to which I finished my question "...get reimbursed from the record company?" To which he also replied no, at which point I felt bad, which spurred me to post this.)

Thanks for the clarification on the digital mastering question. Most of what I'm buying these days is used, all analog stuff anyway (afaik). What time frame did digital mastering become prevalent? Late '80s? Guess the point of this forum is to ask record by record.

 

Digital recordings started in the late '70s actually (Bop Til You Drop by Ry Cooder being the first major label pop LP recorded digitally). For the next few years, select titles were digitally recorded, usually stuff from "bigger" artists. A good chunk of major label stuff from the mid-80s onward was.

 

I have a feeling there will be a new pressing of Automatic, courtesy of Because Sound Matters. Didn't the initial announcement mention R.E.M.?

 

If Because Sound Matters is going to come out with it, I'll wait, but I did a quick search and didn't see it. I'm also waiting for Moondance. Seems that I read a thread that said August timeframe?

 

I could have sworn that Steve's original announcement mentioned "other artists" like REM and Metallica. Maybe I'm going crazy... or maybe that was removed from the post.

 

Is this what you're thinking about:

http://www.becausesoundmatters.com/node/40

I'd like to see it happen; I'd at least get a decent pressing. Guess it doesn't apply to the IRS stuff.

 

That must be it.

I'd love good pressings (mastered by Steve & Kevin) of Green, Out Of Time and Automatic For The People.

 

Yes, it did.

 

I actually came here looking for info on this exact LP.

Just a heads up, these bad copies of AFTP are still circulating. I bought one a couple months ago, sealed, that the store had just gotten in. It was $10, I wasn't expecting an audiophile pressing but I also wasn't expecting it to be actually, physically defective.

Unfortunately, it was a few weeks before I actually got around to playing it and discovered the problems, so I couldn't really take it back without being a total ***, but I just wanted to give a heads up that these bad copies are STILL being sold as new.

I also had the same problem with my LP of Johnny Cash's Solitary Man (American III), on side one, I believe. Really a shame....it makes me hesitant to buy an LP on impulse without meticulously researching it online first, and really, what fun is that?


-Steve C.

 

Just to tie this together, here's a later thread on the same topic. Sorry to hear you had the same problem:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=165977&highlight=automatic+people