Random & Deep Thoughts on My Ripping, Tagging and Streaming Experiences.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dat56, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. dat56

    dat56 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Missouri
    It's been a love/hate thing mostly. I bought a Squeezebox Classic in...I forget what year, but I ran it a few years and then sold it last year and bought a Denon DNP-720AE. I thought the simpler, dumber DLNA server might be for me, the "simpler, dumber audiophile". ...Well, it was...kind of. The Denon has been simpler but also less flexible. There's things I could do with the SB that I can't with the Denon, the limiting factor, I think, mostly being the server the Denon uses. But at least it will run on a NAS, which is what I thought I wanted.

    Beyond that, looking at the ripping process...oh boy, what an endeavor that has turned out to be. My current attempt at ripping my CD collection is into the M's after over a year of work, and that's rarely going over a few days w/o ripping...something. I could have jogged backwards from here to both coasts and back in that time. Think of it: talk shows, world records, fame and freak shows! Instead, all I have is 12,000 flac files on two hard disk drives. And this isn't my first attempt at plowing through my CD library. More like number three. And maybe not the last.

    And I can't excape this nagging thought that just around the corner, a service will be available that will allow cloud streaming of every bit of recorded music on the planet, on demand, in a high quality format for a reasonable monthly fee. Can this be that far away? Then here we all sit with out painstakingly ripped, tagged and backed-up collections, and the never-ending task of updating and maintaining them. ...I coulda had a V8! Indeed.

    But back in the real world... Tagging. Don't even get me started, OK? I'll chalk it up to my own personality disorders, but whatever the excuse, the result is chaos. I simply am unable to decide on a tagging strategy and stick with it! More genres, less genres? I dunno. RG tags or RG's audio? I've tried both (RG'd audio on my latest and current rip-trip). The only thing I can be sure of is uncertainty itself.

    And then there's getting the music from the pc or nas to the stereo. Can you say "reboot"? I can't seem to ever go too long without playback issues appearing that are only solved by a good, swift reboot to the...what? The player? The router? The NAS? Oh shoot, let's just reboot'em all! That always takes care of it.

    I've given much thought to options. I'm really pretty hooked on "jukebox" style playback that only digital audio allows, but how to make it wart and glitch free is the number one question. Thumb drives? mp3 only. Could I live with that? I doubt it. CD-R's with flac files aren't compatible with most CD players, are they? NAD's wireless USB DAC looks like a good fit for me. I may go that route. The stand-alone players with built in hdd's and ripping are cool but too pricey for me at this point in my life. I prefer to stay with my stereo and pc in seperate rooms but united in some kind of unholy alliance for the greater good!

    Thoughts, experiences, insults? :)





    I
     
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  2. hogger_reborn

    hogger_reborn Active Member

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    FAT32 thumb drive loaded up with WAV files. Works everywhere. Sounds good. 128gb thumb drives cost between $40-60 depending on what brand you get.
     
  3. ivan_wemple

    ivan_wemple Senior Member

    You are not alone.

    If you care about sound quality, and the playback "experience" and flexibility afforded by a coherent and organized tagging strategy, building a computer-based digital music library is not an endeavor for the faint-of-heart.
     
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  4. Welly Wu

    Welly Wu Active Member

    Location:
    Nutley, New Jersey
    I remember ripping and encoding my large CD library years ago. It took me several months to use Exact Audio Copy with Accu-Rip and a third-party encoder that I don't remember now to convert my CDs to digital audio files. At first, I chose the FLAC loss less audio codec, but I literally ran out of available disk space with some older external hard disk drives. This was years ago before 1.0 TB hard disk drives were omnipresent. It was such a royal pain in the butt that I swore off of it and I started to purchase my music from various online music merchants. They really do handle everything for you albeit at a premium price. Time or money. Pick one of the two.

    Today, my family members, relatives, and friends and I share our music libraries via the sneaker net. I still rip and encode CDs, but I use Illustrate's dBPowerAMP + Perfect Tunes because it's a superior commercial software solution. I usually rip and encode 12 CDs per day with endless troves to get to eventually. I still purchase CDs a la carte, but I usually go for bigger deluxe edition box sets to save money by buying in bulk.

    Since I moved into my large apartment here in Nutley, New Jersey, I have more physical space to store a large CD library. Most of it consists of CDs borrowed by friends in my neighborhood. I perform the ripping and encoding process for them and I share my MP3 music library with them. As for loss less audio codecs, I've pretty much given up simply because my family members, relatives, and friends don't want to keep purchasing larger and faster external hard disk drives every year. So, I stick with LAME 3.99.5 V0 "extreme" profile joint stereo MP3s for most of my encoding. It's not the most efficient lossy audio codec, but I could do much worse. I see my family members, relatives, and friends prefer MP3s because their hardware devices and software programs will recognize this audio codec natively. Had I been given a choice in the matter, I would have chosen AAC or Vorbis as a more modern and more efficient audio codec.

    Don't shoot the messenger. A lot of people do this and I'm being honest and truthful. We bought our CDs outright and we're not engaging in torrenting pirated media content through BitTorrent.
     
  5. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    I think dat56's frustrations can be broken down into two main categories:

    1) Equipment. Gotta get the right tool(s) for the job! At least that what my dad always told me. Running on a NAS is bound to cause short-term and long-term headaches. I did it for years before wising up and moving to a Mac Mini to run Squeezebox/Logitech Media server. Although it's no longer officially supported, I'd recommend moving back to Squeezebox hardware and LMS. You can make your own hardware for <$100 and the server software is effectively open-source.

    2) Ripping/tagging. There is no easy solution for this. Took me years! However, it has been totally worth it. I've now got all my 26K+ songs ripped, and they're available to me in every room of my house, and anywhere in the world I have an internet connection. Spin a CD? Too slow and too restrictive. I want my music, everywhere, right now, and quickly. Why is it taking you three attempt to rip/tag? Hopefully you have at least two backups.
     
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  6. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I've developed a foolproof workaround that's saved me thousands of hours of ripping CDs, and gives me access to the entire collection from A to M and all the way to Z.

    I listen to CDs on a CD player.

    :nauga:
     
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  7. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Personally, I have not ripped with the Replay Gain Apply. I did not rip with the Replay Gain Applied because if I am going through the effort of ripping losslessly and accurately so that my rips are EXACTLY the same bit for bit as the original CDs, then why would I want to 'physically' alter the file forever?
    I do rip with the Replay Gain Tag (as well as the iTunes Normalization tag) in the event that I ever decide to use it while I listen when I stream randomly from my library. I haven't as of yet! In the car I play the iPod on shuffle, but when I am home (or elsewhere thanks to the internet streaming through the Logitech Media Server) I listen to an album straight through, so no need IMO to use Replay Gain. But is is nice to know that I have the tag there just in case I change my mind!
     
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  8. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    I'm happy for you, but that really doesn't belong in this thread.
     
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  9. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Really? Tell it to the OP — I like his take-on-all-comers invitation.

    And I sincerely believe that people ripping massive CD collections deserve to be reminded it's possibly not necessary.
     
  10. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Be that as it may, the spirit of the thread lies in the title - streaming .
    I can appreciate your preference, the old open and close the transport drawer is a welcome relief when the infrequent networking or digital glitch occur! However I would rather this thread not be switched over to a 'physical' vs. streaming debate. That is the topic of another thread, and frankly I'd be interested to see what percentage of each is here on the forum.

    Thanks!
     
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  11. dat56

    dat56 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Missouri
    My CD player has a USB input but the maual says it is limited to mp3 and WMA files of no more than 320 kbps. My network audio player also has one but I'm not sure about it's limitations.

    My first attempt was in 320 kb/s mp3 format. Then I decided a third the way through that sound quality would not cut it.
    Second attempt was in flac, but I thought I would cull tracks I didn't care for. I got into the R's! Then I decided it was taking too long to decide which tracks to cull and that it would be easier and quicker to just rip'em all.

    Attempt number three: I'm ripping almost everything I own. All to flac. But because I wanted to stream from a cheap NAS, which allows me to leave the pc off, I don't have the option of using RG tags. That's why I am applying RG to the audio as I rip. Yeah, I know it's not pure, but it actually works well for me.

    And you sir, are a smartie-pants. ;)
     
  12. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    There are other options if you don't want to leave a PC on 24/7. There are low-cost/low-power small PCs that can run LMS, and are much more powerful than a NAS, and don't take up much more space.
     
  13. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I went through all of the thoughts that the OP experienced not just thought about. So I held off on the ripping for a few years. Then things changed and I reconsidered.

    1. Cost of drives dropped
    1. Squeezebox left the market, and
    3. JRiver took hold in a major way
    4. Tagging databases became better stocked
    5. I realized I could use the DAC in my receiver
    6. I had good computers no longer in use

    Now three years ago I started ripping. Certain box sets like the Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky Columbia albums series big box set was a doozy. It seems that the available tags for that set lacked consistency from disc to disc. Each disc would use either the American spelling of a given work, another disc the French Rite of Spring, or yet just Stravinsky Conducts Disc 12 or what ever. No other options were available for this set. So tagging was right for so many of my Classical discs, or no tags were available at all. No album covers for much of it either.

    I see a lot of re-ripping in my near future. But I'm ok with it, at least I know what I need to do now and what it looks like in the player post rip. It was a learning curve with tags. And often when I asked friends and forum members about classical ripping I got incomplete answers or else no answers.

    The only good news in regards to my classical rips is that I got the info in there on those ones not in any databases. I got soloists and conductors in the wrong fields, but the info is there. So corrections will go fairly easier being that I did type in some info when nothing showed up automatically. Or if nothing was there and info was sketchy, I put label and catalog number in. Composer was then entered and ripped with just that.

    A couple of short years ago, it was tough with modern classical with no tags or incomplete info, no art to be found online at all.
     
  14. dat56

    dat56 Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    SW Missouri
    That would have been a good option to consider -if I'd been aware of it. I'm using a 2TB Western Digital NAS. It works pretty well, really. But it has it's limits, for sure.
     
  15. jult52

    jult52 New Member

    I gave up on computer audio partly because of the difficulties quickstrt and dac56 describe. Instead of spending hundreds of hours ripping CDs, why not listen, play and study music?
     
  16. jult52

    jult52 New Member

    Sam - Your time is your time, but I honestly don't see how spending massive amounts of time to achieve marginal benefits (such as not having to occasionally carry pieces of physical media from place to place) meets any sort of rational cost/benefit ratio. That's not meant as a snark. I just don't see how it's worth the substantial effort.
     
  17. Olias of Sunhill

    Olias of Sunhill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jim Creek, CO, USA
    While I ripped my 1500+ CDs, I listened to, played and studied music -- on vinyl. There was no wasted time whatsoever, and I rediscovered quite a few albums and artists I'd forgotten about. I now have my entire library (minus the LP-only titles) in every room of my house, at work, and a substantial portion as 256k AACs on various devices.

    As you say elsewhere, everyone has different listening preferences. I like my music server and look forward to the eventual death of standard resolution physical media, but I understand why others may disagree.
     
  18. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    You see, I draw a completely opposite conclusion from yours.

    Cost/benefit ratio.
    How long did it take you to buy/acquire your CD collection? 20 years?
    How much did it cost to do that? Tens of thousands?
    How easily could it be wiped out by fire/flood/natural disaster/theft? Happens to someone in the USA every day of the year.

    By spending a few hours a week, over maybe a year, and spending maybe $200 on hard drives, you can effectively safeguard a cherished music collection against any disaster or mishap, for eternity. How many of your CDs are effectively "irreplaceable"? I know a handful of mine never come up on ebay, etc., at any price.

    It's worth a "substantial effort" (your words, not mine), because my CD/digital music collection represents 25+ years of hard work, tons of money and enjoyment that I don't want to lose in a matter of minutes, just because my neighbors house catches on fire and takes mine with it.

    I also find the concept of 'taking a CD with me' rather absurd at this point. I take my phone with me every where I go, and it fits in my pocket. Every CD/FLAC file I own (over 26,000) is available to me, 24/7, any place in the world that I take my phone. I'm not going to go back to 1992 and haul around a CaseLogic 100 CD binder! Even if it was filled with CD-Rs, it is still a ridiculous pain, and not at all convenient if you travel a lot.

    BUT.. the absolute best way to enjoy a ripped collection is to have it available in any room of your house. Like many of you, I have a main listening room/system for serious listening. But as a family man, I'm often in the living room, outside on the patio, maybe in the bedroom, etc. Anywhere I'm at, I have a streaming client connected, and a phone/tablet app to let me select any song, any time, any room. It would be somewhat crazy to try and hunt down my gold DCC CD copy of Elton John's "Greatest Hits" to listen to in the kitchen while my hands are washing dishes. But I can get the first track going in 3 seconds literally, streamed from my collection.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
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  19. vanye

    vanye Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    First things first, would be my advice. It makes no sense to think about hardware before you have your music ripped and tagged. And - as you experienced - the process is a major pain in the neck. Even worse: It never stops because you acquire new music all the time, which you then also have to rip and tag.
     
  20. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yes, but I stated that I was having issues three years ago......................... and now many or all of those issues have been cleared up.

    I stated the issues I had (a few years ago) with classical titles, especially obscure ones. Now three years later, the databases are a completely different story with major and minor works showing up with tags and album covers automatically. The roughest things about ripping discs previously (no tags, wrong tagging data, no album covers) has been fixed. So many people have added data to the tagging databases, that now it so much easier and faster.

    I also stated that I saw no reason to get into server system because I did not mind reaching for a CD or LP now and again. But now I can dig out and play anything within a few seconds, I am hearing things I have not heard in years.

    So, anyone avoiding ripping to server today is not doing themselves any favors. It is the wave of the future of music listening and video/movie watching. Costs have dropped so that about anyone can afford it.
     
  21. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Oh, and having three computers going while ripping is what I sometimes do. Sometimes just two computers, depends on how many discs I want to get finished. A router with three internet connections, and each computer with at least two drives, so that you can switch out the disc into another drive if one track seems to be not perfect. You just rip that one track again with a different drive, and 99% chance it's going to be fine.

    I just did 35 Jazz titles last night. The 4CD set John Coltrane - Live in Japan has some tracks that are nearly an hour long each. For some reason that length seems to (at least on my machines) contribute to the possibility that the given track will not be bit perfect. I switched drives and got perfect.

    I find the process relaxing. I can go and do other things while it is ripping, one does not have to sit at their desk ever second during this.
     
  22. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Here's the ease of music exploration and listening that you can look forward to, if you invest the time in ripping/tagging. I get to enjoy much more of my music, and more frequently, as every artist/album/song is literally a finger's touch away.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    That is why I have a VERY good home insurance policy. I can replace CD/albums, no problem, all it takes is $$$.

    I'm WAY over insured and have discussed total loss replacement of dwelling and contents with my insurance more than a few times over the years. I'd actually be ahead quite a bit dollar wise. For a few more hundred dollars a year it's wise to get the best/most loss coverage one can get. I have a lot of DVD's,CD's, vinyl, but even more expensive are my guitars. Money from insurance would cover all of the loss and then some.

    I worry more about irreplaceable things, old family photos, my personal artwork, my poetry & music. I have converted a good deal of that to CD's and have backups stored off the home site. The loss of my art and the original tapes of my music would be the worst physical items lost, as the photos I've taken and stored digitally will never replace the original art nor will the CD's dubbed from the original master tapes.

    As far as my CD's, for "non critical listening convenience use" a good deal of my physical media was purchased from Amazon and is "stored" on Amazon, after a hard drive crash this year all I had to do was download everything again, a click of an icon and a few hours later it was all back on my computers and was already still there on my cloud player. Granted that is not all of it, but quite a bit of it.
     
  24. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    If you're like me and have a fair amount of OOP CDs, it would take far more time/effort to actually find a replacement (if you could at all), than the 10 minutes per disc to rip/tag/back up. The money is secondary to the replacement efforts.
     
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  25. mwheelerk

    mwheelerk Sorry, I can't talk now, I'm listening to music...

    Location:
    Gilbert Arizona
    I can understand someone else's sense of a daunting task when looking at creating your music library initially. When I began my library about 7 years ago I didn't start with as large a library as many may have. Part of that was by choice because I honestly hated the bulk of a CD collection. I'm not saying at times it wasn't a real task for me to complete it but the benefits I feel I have gained far outweigh the hours and hours of "work" I put into it. Since creating my library it has grown significantly and my listening has grown dramatically so much so that I believe I listen to more music now than in the "glory" days. Maybe it isn't for everyone but it is certainly for me.
     
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