Re-tipping expensive cartridge, yes or no?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Uglyversal, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Sydney
    One of my best cartridges Ortofon Kontrapunkt with ruby cantilever is still sounding good but it is giving signals that is at the end of it's life. To replace for an equivalent will be a couple of thousands.

    I wonder if anybody here has done it before with companies like Garrott in Australia or Soundsmith's in the US.
    Were you satisfied, did the cartridge retain the original sound or changed noticeably? Any problems?

    Any input would be appreciated as I can see I have to start thinking now about what to do.

    Thank you
     
  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    The Expert Stylus. U.K
    Does top notch work. They have been in
    business since tbe 50,s.
    What makes them special is that they cut their own stylus called Paratrace.
    The best.This is important as whoever
    Does the work cannot fit the ORIGINAL.
    It will not be quite the same cartridge.
    It could well be better! Its a wait and see
    Game.
    Hopefully someone here will be able to help having had similiar work done
    Themselves.
    The savings will be considerable
    Good luck
     
    Uglyversal and Fishoutofwater like this.
  3. sfoclt

    sfoclt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    ortofon has the special repair service for the higher end cartridges. You’ll end up with a practically new cartridge for a reasonable fee.

    Ortofon Repair service
     
  4. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    I have used retippers on expensive cartridges before, and the results have been positive. For instance I once needed to retip a Koetsu Urushi Tsugaru, and I sent it up to Andy, this is his site: Phono Cartridge Repair

    Anyways, I had also come across a Koetsu Urushi that was stock and at a very favorable price, so I bought it as a control to evaluate the retipped cartridge. Andy uses Namiki cantilever and diamond assemblies, and I believe he does have a sapphire cantilever option. Anyways the result of the Koetsu comparisons is that the retipped one sounded exactly the same as the stock one. So I have no issues with his work.

    I also believe that Peter at Soundsmith has a sapphire cantilever assembly with a line contact styli on it available for a reasonable price. However I do not know where its sourced from, it could very well be Namiki also. But I do not know for sure.

    I also have seen the diamond size of the highest tier Namiki diamond versus the Replicant 100 from Ortofon, and to my eyes the Japanese diamond has less mass, and longer contact areas. I would have no problem using it on my Ortofon A90 when it comes time to retip.

    Regards
    Mister Pig
     
    JNTEX and Rolltide like this.
  5. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    An excellent re-tipping anecdote. I've never used a re-tipping service, but I think I'll send my Koetsu to Andy when its time. I'm very particular in my thinking on this topic in that I want the cartridge to sound as close to the original as possible. I have no doubt Soundsmith does great work, but there seems to be a vibe of improvement there, and that's explicitly not what I'm looking for.
     
    unityofsaints and Strat-Mangler like this.
  6. Nascimento Brasil

    Nascimento Brasil Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sao Paulo/Brasil
    I used the services of Van Den Hull and Soundsmith, VDH has been without treble, Soundsmith, it got better than the original, think the only way to play as original, will be sending to the manufacturer!
     
    Uglyversal likes this.
  7. Jeffreylee

    Jeffreylee Rock 'n' Roll Typist

    Location:
    Louisville
    I had a unhappy experience with Andy last year. Neither cartridge came back with centered cantilevers and one was lopsided.

    I complained but his response was less than responsible, and since both technically “worked” I didn’t have a lot of wiggle room for filing a PayPal claim. I probably should have complained more but chose to move on.

    I can use the one that’s merely off-center but the other requires azimuth adjustment and that just pisses me off. The three carts that Soundsmith refurbished had zero issues and performed flawlessly.
     
    Heckto35, PATB, Uglyversal and 2 others like this.
  8. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Garrott do great work too. Back in the day, I had them do Stax CPY, Supex SD900E Super, Breuer Type 80, Dynavector 17D and Kiseki Blue cartridges (the last 3 with boron cantilever replacements as well). None came back sounding less than they had brand new - all were at least a big improvement.
     
  9. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Except that both brothers have departed this orbe for the uncharted realm as I recall.

    Regards
    Mister Pig
     
  10. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Yes, that happened years ago in a mass suicide pact - absolutely awful news at the time, as I had met them several times when they lived down at Black Rock. I'm guessing that someone else has been doing their work now.
     
    Alan G and rich121 like this.
  11. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Every retipper I know of has horror stories about them where something did not go right. Andy has some. I know someone who had issues with Expert Stylus work. I don't know of any by Soundsmith, but I don't specifically seek them out either. On my Koetsu Urushi Tsugaru it was a VDH retip with under 150 hours on it bought from a good seller I personally know. The diamond separated from the cantilever in the middle of an album, and there is nothing I really did to it, as I use an Onzo Zero Dust for stylus cleaning.

    Did the cartridges going to Andy start with straight cantilevers, or were they canted to start with? One thing that is good about Soundsmith is that if there is an iota of issue with the candidate, they refuse the job, and that means no bad ones get out there. But it does mean you cannot send them questionable cartridges, and roll the dice on them.

    I have had Andy do over a dozen cartridges for me, as I do a mental tally, and all of them have come back in great shape. I think only two ever got sent back as non repairable.

    But like I said, if you look every retipper has horror stories out there. And unless you just wear a diamond out, every retip of a cartridge with a broken cantilever or a skewed one is a gamble....not everyone will be savable.

    Regards
    Mister Pig
     
  12. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Sydney
    I haven't heard of "The expert stylus" I will check them out latter.

    I knew about the Ortofon re-tipping service but I was told in the past their cost is so close to the value of the cartridge that I would not contemplate it, if I have to spend that kind of money I'd rather replace it.

    I like the cartridge and I would have preferred to sound the same but it looks unavoidable that the sound might be affected and won't know if I like it until I do it. Having said that and after all this input I am more inclined to do it. The cost of doing it depending on my choices seem it is going to be about a quarter of an equivalent replacement, still decent money but it won't be as painful as a new cartridge of this kind.

    The Garrott brothers as mentioned are no longer with us and the company was taken over by someone else. If they were still the owners I would have been more inclined to use them but not sure now. I watched an interview with the owner of Soundsmith and with the things I saw in that video it kind of gave me some peace of mind. If I send it to them I still have to confront possible extra problems dealing with imports and exports just when rules about imports are being changed here in Australia but it is great to hear of some positive experiences with them.

    I also have question regarding something I've read on the Garrott website and it was that any cleaning with liquids will void the warranty. I generally use a brush and the Onzow cleaner to clean my cartridges but on occasions and during all my life I have cleaned the stylus with rubbing alcohol with great results and never a problem. I can also see that several brands make liquid based products including Nagaoka which I presume would know what they are doing and would not sell a product that will cause problems.
    The question is, do the re-tippers use any glue that is different to what the manufacturers use and is it possible it will dissolve when in contact with liquids?

    If anybody else has any other experiences or knowledge regarding the re-tipping please keep them comming.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  13. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Sydney
    Yes, well the horror stories is what interest me as it seems that by the time everything is taking into account I could spend around US400-500 which is a lot less than the cartridge but I wouldn't be too happy throwing that money in the garbage. The ruby cantilever is perfect and straight, the diamond while I can't visually see it is worn, I know it is. I can't complain, this cartridge has had an unbelievable run, way in excess what I could have ever dreamed but with some records now there is no doubt, it wants to retire.
     
  14. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Well you are in Australia, send it to Garrott Brothers. They are run by Audio Dynamics now, and are reported to be a solid comapny. If your cartridge has just a worn diamond, then its a very straight forward retip. this part is not rocket science, not are the parts so customized that nothing will work. There are only 3 or maybe 4 suppliers of cantilever/diamonds in all of the world, and they supply cartridge companies and retippers. Dimensions of these things like cantilevers are going to be very standard.

    My advice would be to pick up the phone and talk to Audio Dynamics, they can tell you what is and is not possible.

    Or...send it to me. I would happily send it up to Andy for a rebuild. :D

    Regards
    Mister Pig
     
    Uglyversal likes this.
  15. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    I have a Denon DL-160, the diamond is missing from the cantilever. Occasionally I consider sending it out, but it's like $250.
     
  16. Jeffreylee

    Jeffreylee Rock 'n' Roll Typist

    Location:
    Louisville
    They weren’t retips. They were rebuilds. Both were cartridges I had been using but had a lot of wear so I sent them to him for evaluation, mostly because the wait at Soundsmith has gotten so long. There were no issues with them other than hours traveled.

    He replaced the cantilever and tip so there is no excuse.
     
  17. Scott in DC

    Scott in DC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I have had two cartridges rebuilt, a Dynavector DRT XV-1 (my current cartridge) and a Van den hul MC10 Special. Both cartridges were rebuilt by the manufacturers. I have never had a cartridge rebuilt by companies other than the manufacturer.

    I initially considered getting my beloved Dynavector retipped by Soundsmith but I decided against doing that and instead went with a full rebuild, even though it cost much more.

    Scott
     
  18. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig I didn't Choose Farm Life It Chose Me

    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Doesnt sound like there should have been then. I dont think I would have accepted them that way from any rebuilder.

    But I wouldnt call them a rebuild, but a retip. A rebuild means new suspension, new damping bushing, along with new cantilever and diamond. Changing a cantilever and diamond is a retip to me, as those are the wear parts. But that is just semantics...I do understand what you mean.

    Regards
    Mister Pig
     
  19. Jeffreylee

    Jeffreylee Rock 'n' Roll Typist

    Location:
    Louisville
    Yeah, I guess there really isn't a short-cut word for having the cantilever and stylus replaced. To me, a retip should refer only to the stylus. I should have just said that I had both replaced. And you're right: I should have raised more hell and gotten them done correctly or been refunded. Live and learn.
     
  20. attym

    attym Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    I’ve used Andy to repair a sagging suspension. It came came back perfect. I did notice it start to sag again and he redid it no questions asked. He was fast and the price was right. Would certainly use again!

    I also sent a dynavector 20x2 to soundsmith for ruby retip and it was a great experience. (And an improvement which I was hoping for)
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  21. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Not bad, you can't even find the 160's to buy today, not even used. For $250 I'd do it - it's less than the cost of a new 110 today.
     
  22. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Perhaps when my tastes swing back the other way. I tend to switch between Denon and AT carts. Had two DL-110's and now have an AT VM 540, which I really like.
     
  23. Salectric

    Salectric Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Soundsmith has a “retap only” option where Peter attaches a new stylus tip to the existing cantilever, assuming the existing cantilever is not damaged. The “ratip only” option is actually more expensive than getting a new cantilever as well as tip. There is more labor involved.

    I have sent my Benz LP to SS twice now for the “retip only” treatment and I have been delighted with the results both times. As far as I can tell, after the retipping the Benz sounds just like it did when it was new (after breakin). I plan on sending my Benz to Peter every 3 years for as long as he’s able to make it sound like new. As far as I am concerned, his retipping service is a flat out bargain.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  24. Salectric

    Salectric Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Sorry. It is “retip only.” My phone keeps changing that to something else.
     
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