Record Grading Question

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by QuestionMark?, Feb 7, 2017.

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  1. QuestionMark?

    QuestionMark? 4TH N' GOAL Thread Starter

    Location:
    The End Zone
    How do you grade a clean record that has those marks from being put in the sleeve before it was cool enough? Do you try to describe them in your description? How do you say what they are and how they look?
     
  2. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    hairline scratches from sleeve removal. If thats all and its otherwise perfect, VG+.
     
  3. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    The grading has virtually nothing to do with how it looks and virtually everything to do with how it sounds.

    If I record has many slight surface scratches but plays flawlessly, then it could be mint minus. If I record looks absolutely pristine but has groove damage from a heavy needle it could be graded poor. Simple as that.
     
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  4. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    If you're in the US.

    For most of the rest of the world, it would be EX...hence the root of many US buyers' (uninformed) complaints about VG+ gradings by overseas sellers.
     
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  5. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Half correct and half incorrect.
     
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  6. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I have found that if an LP has lots of little hairline scratches, that can sometimes add quite a bit of noticeable surface noise. I've found this to be especially true when playing such records on better quality cartridges. In my decades of record collecting, I've encountered very few LPs with lots of hairline scratches that could be graded higher than a VG.
     
  7. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Hairline surface scratches should generally have little to no impact on sound quality - particularly with better quality carts which get down deeper into grooves where hairline scratches don't reach.

    Both the Goldmine and Record Collector grading systems rely on both visual and audio judgements of condition - with an emphasis on visual.
     
  8. Guy E

    Guy E Senior Member

    Location:
    Antalya, Turkey
    In my experience VG+ albums are often pretty beat-up. If it's a clean album and the outer-surface scuffs have no audio impact, I'd call it M-.

    I say that as a record buyer; I've never personally graded an album to sell. The kind of cosmetic non-damage that comes direct from the factory does not knock an LP down from M to M- to VG++ to VG+. No way.

    The whole grading system is far from perfect (and there's more than one, with personal variations) but in my experience it was based on Goldmine standards where a Doo-Wop 45 that plays through without skipping gets a 'VG' grade. It can have all kinds of ticks, pops and surface noise, but if it doesn't skip it's VG.

    VG+ (in my experience) means it's an album that was given a lot of play on not-so-great turntables/cartridges and handled with semi-care. It is a LONG way from being a museum piece.

    The OP doesn't sound like he's describing an album that was well-loved and oft-played by a teenage kid. To be safe/fair, I'd suggest describing the condition and characterizing the imperfections along with the formal "grade."
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  9. Arkay_East

    Arkay_East Forum Resident

    Location:
    ATX
    I buy a LOT of really great records with visual imperfections that pretty much play flawlessly after they are cleaned. If there is no audible noise during playback I would state that with the rating. I guess I would say play graded as EX or VG+ ... I put a lot of weight on play grading because it's the only way to really tell what's what, and it is not very common (for obvious reasons).

    The real answer as far as I'm concerned personally, is that I buy records in shops so I can play them. I listen instead of looking.
     
  10. quicksilverbudie

    quicksilverbudie quicksilverbudie

    Location:
    Ontario
    Visual grade
    Play grade

    there can be a difference :agree:

    sean
     
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  11. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area

    This is definitely not my experience. And if anything, I've found that carts that dig deeper in the grooves reveal more surface noise. Years ago, when I upgraded from a Shure M97xE to an AT440MLa, the increase in surface noise on LPs which were totally clean, but which had lots of small hairline scratches, was quite noticeable. These aren't high-end cartridges, obviously, but there was a clear difference.

    Also, there are many sellers who rely solely on visual grading, which is an extremely flawed way to go about it, since there are records which look pristine but which have surface noise due to having been played with a cheap or improperly aligned needle. Visual grading is important, but you're rarely going to get an accurate grading if relying solely on visual.
     
  12. Hershiser

    Hershiser Forum Resident

    I believe the OP is referring to the milky white lines that go across the record that have no effect on the sound but are unsightly. Some of my MM titles have this. They are not hairlines or scratches.
     
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  13. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Sorry but if you're hearing more surface noise with a finer line cart then your set-up hasn't been optimized.

    Visual grading is explicitly referenced in the industry standards because...its impossible for every record to play graded. In a perfect world, every record would be play graded. But even then, the variability in set-ups can render play-grading almost meaningless.

    It's an imperfect system rendered even more imperfect by every Tom, Dick and Harry inventing their own definition of VG+ or NM-
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  14. Arkay_East

    Arkay_East Forum Resident

    Location:
    ATX
    I call them sleeve scuffs and yeah I do not consider those at all when grading

    My FIL uses a cart like that and all my stuff plays with less noise (not more) on his system. He says it's because the "stylus travels deeper into the groove below the scratches" or something along those lines.
     
  15. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    Sleeve scuffs = mint minus?

    :unhunh:

    Mint should mean never opened. Mint minus should mean opened but never played.
     
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  16. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    So far I've read nothing but largely subjective arbitrary intepretations of what people think grading should be - but not one reference to the actual written industry standards for the Record Collector and Goldmine grading systems - which be easily found with a web search.

    To the OP, I would discount any advice from someone who references their own standard rather than one or both of the industry standards.
     
  17. Arkay_East

    Arkay_East Forum Resident

    Location:
    ATX
    I truly wish the Goldmine standards were applied across the board, but they are not applied consistently (or at all) in most cases, and we all still buy records. Hence the discussion.
     
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  18. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Yes. And I discount the advice of someone who references their own standard.
     
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  19. matthew2600

    matthew2600 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    I'm kinda shocked people are describing records with visual issues as EX or Mint-Minus, that sounds like negative feedback or a return waiting to happen. About the only records I'd grade as EX would be something I bought sealed and opened myself or just some completely untouched minty record which happens I guess but rarely. VG+ might not be a museum piece but "pretty beat-up" sounds like VG or VG-.
     
  20. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    MINT = Unplayed. Can be open. No signs of handling or wear.

    Nr. Mint = Looks Unplayed. May show signs of handling.
     
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  21. garrincha

    garrincha Forum Resident

    Location:
    Plymouth, UK
    judging from the above, I must be really conservatively grading my records. to me, mint is unopened, nm is a completely flawless record (sound, not necessarily visually) and vg+ is a record that has been played carefully only a handful of times

    beat up record = good/good+

    imo
     
  22. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    I'm with you.
     
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  23. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I'm not sure what you mean by "optimized," but the cartridge is most definitely properly aligned, etc.

    And I'm not the only person who has experienced this - it's common knowledge that better styli often reveal more flaws in the grooves.
     
  24. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Yeah, I agree. I'm extremely conservative with my grading and it's frustrating that the grading system is so open to interpretation.

    However, this points to one of the big flaws in the grading system: why do we grade "pretty beat up" records as "Very Good" or even "Very Good minus" in the first place? In normal usage of English language, we don't use "very good" to describe anything that's "pretty beat up." Even describing a beat up record as "good" would seem weirdly deceptive to anyone not already familiar with the commonly used grading systems.
     
  25. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    Of course it is. And let's be honest: that's the point.
     
    Pavol Stromcek likes this.
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