Rega P3 vs P7

A few weeks ago, I was playing a familiar album on my parents' system, and during a crescendo passage, an obbligato cello solo really popped like I'd never heard it before on my home system. This surprised me.

After some convincing, my father agreed to let me borrow the P7, so that I could compare its performance to my P3 with the Groovetracer upgrades. I thought that Rega lovers might be curious to read my thoughts after several careful listening sessions.

The equipment used is stated on my profile. Dad's P7 is factory, and my P3 is upgraded with both the reference subplatter and acrylic platter from Groovetracer as well as the Michell TecnoWeight. I played through 20 familiar albums of varying condition and musical genres during listening sessions that spanned nearly two weeks. The P7 has the RB700 arm and is fitted with the Rega Exact (moving magnet) cartridge, and my P3 has the RB300 arm and is fitted with an Ortofon Rondo Red (low output moving coil). Both tables were plugged into my Musical Fidelity X-LPS V3 phono stage. I would play the first side on one table, then both sides on the second table, and then the second side on the first table. On some days I started with the P7 and on others I started with the P3. The results are below.

P7 with Exact:
-warmer/duller
-more dynamic/emotional
-wider stereo image
-exaggerates counterpoint/obbligato passages
-more noise/less IGD (fine line/vital cut)
-smoother/relaxed/easy
-expansive not immediate

P3 with Rondo Red:
-more accurate/transparent
-greater focus/clarity (tighter/controlled bass)
-smaller/precise stereo imaging
-minutiae/fainter instruments better heard
-less noise/more IGD (elliptical cut)
-more percussive/involving
-immediate not expansive

Pace, rhythm and timing was evident on both tables. Both give enjoyable listening experiences. It surprised me how close the tables fared in terms of performance -- in fact, my ears could not detect any pitch problems with the single belt system on the P3 versus the dual belts on the P7, nor was there any perceptible noise floor difference between the integrated power supply on the P3 versus the external power supply on the P7. Any differences between plinth and arm construction also seemed negligible. My listening impressions strike me as having more to do with the two different cartridges than anything to do with construction differences between the two tables.

I was so sure the factory P7 was going to blow my upgraded P3 out of the water. Not so. In fact, for my listening taste, the P3 with the Ortofon seems to better suit my preference for the Rotel sound, and I had no difficulty returning the P7 to its rightful home. Any comments or impressions are welcome.

 

The P7 really sings when combined with a MC cart, to bad you didn't have the possibility to have a similar MC cart mounted on the P7 during the test- then the differences would have been greater. The Rega Exact is a very good MM cart but it falls short when compared to the most MC carts from the same price range and up.

 

Great info! I’m surprised that you expected the P7 to win though. I’m guessing that the P3 is the recent 2016 model with the top bracing? If so, given that the P7 was released in 2002, I’m glad yours sounded better!

 

The P7 is still a better turntable than the most recent Planar 3, the build quality is top notch on the P7 even if it's an older model. Armed with a good MC cart the P7 isn't so very far behind its successor the RP8 soundwise.

 

Right you are that the cartridge plays the most important role in the retrieval of information from an Lp when the turntables and arms are similarly competent. The source is coupled directly with the cartridges generator there and so it is creating a signal that then travels through the arm and to the amp. Having the exact same cartridge is important in hearing differences in capabilities and in characteristics of turntables being compared. Otherwise, you are really comparing cartridges. Had you had the Rondo on the P7, your impressions would have been different. Certainly you realize now that the P3 is a great value and that you can happily live with it however. I lived with an original Planar 3 for 20 years. It will support an even nicer cartridge and sound even better. Place a $1000+ LOMC cartridge on it or the P7 and run it into an appropriate phono stage and you'll hear even more details.

-Bill

 

The old P7 might be slightly better than the latest Planar 3, that'd be an interesting listen. Certainly the older P7 looks as if should be better with the parts it includes, but a lot of effort has went into less obvious improvements on the latest Planar 3 as well. It has three generations of improvements on it vs the old P3 that was around when the P7 was new.

The RP8 however is another story. It actually has performance at least the equal of the old P9 table with RB900. Once the RB1000 was added to the later P9 versions, the sonic distinctions between it and the RP8 become more difficult and yet many who have compared them find the RP8 to be superior even then. The RP8 is that good; it is clearly the better sounding table when compared to the P7.
-Bill

 

The sound characteristics noted under the P7/RB700/Exact combo remind me of what I heard when I put an Exact on my P9/RB1000. I’d agree this was largely a comparison of cartridges.

 

The P3 even in stock form is an overachiever. Now the only thing left to do is swap the cartridges! I run a RB700 and started with an exact; while the exact was a pleasure to listen to, the arm is so much more capable.

 

Not the Planar 3, nor the RP3. I should have specified that my P3 is the year 2000 model, the same-ish vintage as the P7.

 

I also have the Rega P3 (2000) with the Groovetracer upgrades (subplatter, Delrin platter, counterweight and clamp) and the Ortofon 2M bronze cartridge. It was a great sounding turntable out of the box. Each of the upgrades improved the performance of the turntable significantly. Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that your P3 was competitive with a much more expensive Rega turntable. I am very pleased with the sound of my turntable, although I haven't heard any of the newer models. It also looks pretty cool with the black Delrin platter and the silver clamp. I'm sure it would sound even better with an MC cartridge. For me, that would mean getting a new phono stage.

 

I wonder how my P25 would stack up against the new Planar 6?

 

Pretty much the impression I had. The Exact is pleasant enough, but it doesn't allow the P7's capabilities to really shine through. I'll have my dad read this thread and maybe that will compel him to upgrade his cartridge and phono stage.

I didn't realize how dark the Rega magnets are until I switched to the Ortofon in 2012. Dad bought his P7 with the Exact and I started with the Bias on the P3. I never liked the Bias; it just seemed boring to me, at least in hindsight.

Glad to know there's still upgrade potential for the (nearly) 20 year old P3, although I didn't purchase mine until 2007. It really is a great value turntable. And I'm sure the Groovetracer/Michell upgrades help somewhat. It just seems to me that the Rega magnet cartridges are overpriced for their performance. The Exact retails for nearly the same cost as a Rondo Red, and the latter is light years ahead, at least for my listening preference. Fine line styli track inner grooves better than elliptical and so there's less inner groove distortion, but they also have a tendency to exaggerate surface noise (probably because they fit better into the grooves and get down to where the noise is). I used to own the AT440MLa and noticed the same phenomenon. Given the choice between exaggerated surface noise or a little more IGD, I'd choose IGD over noise every time, especially if it's a more musically satisfying cartridge.

The Rondo Red has outstanding value and is thoroughly satisfying. But it's nice to know that I could double its cost and still pull more performance out the P3. For curiosity's sake, what would you recommend for a $1,000+ LOMC? Would my phono stage (Musical Fidelity X-LPS v3) be capable enough for something in that price range, or would I want to consider upgrading that too?

I know that you're an experienced Rega guy, so if I had placed a second Rondo on the P7 to make it a fair trial, what sort of differences might I have heard? As far as I can tell, the dual-belt system, the ceramic flywheel platter, the upgraded plinth, the outboard PSU and the better arm of the P7 don't seem to make a sonic difference ... or is that because the cartridge is the most important piece, and without that being the same, I'm not able to perceive a difference between the construction of the two tables?

 

The Bias is rather dark compared to many cartridges, but not really what I'd call boring. It sounds sort of like a warmer version of the Ortofon Red.
-Bill

 

The Bias is a warmer version of the 2M Red? Can't say it's anything like my Rondo Red.

What's the sonic profile of the Rega coils? Are they also dark compared to Ortofon? I've never heard one. My experience with Rega cartridges is limited to the Bias and Exact.

Ortofon and Rega are definitely two different schools. The Exact really is expansive ... compared to the Rondo, the stereo imaging was so wide it was like turning on some sort of surround sound effect, but that might have more to do with the fine line/vital stylus tip.

 

Not even close. The Planar 6 improves on every feature and the sum of all of those changes really adds-up to a significantly better sounding deck. The P25 was really a dressed-up Planar 3. It was introduced to celebrate their 25th anniversary and also was first to showcase the direct mounted motor without a sophisticated, outboard power supply like the P9 had. The wood trim on the P25 looked amazing and the overall design foreshadowed the next generation of Rega decks (the 2000 series).
-Bill

 

Maybe a touch warmer than some of the Ortofons. The Rega MC carts are really neutral and revealing. Not like MM at all. The latest Rega cart, the Ania will outperform both the Exact and the Rondo.
-Bill

 

Is the Ania the entry level of the Rega coils? I'm not sure what the price points are for their cartridges. Maybe I'll demo one at the local shop this weekend (as a possible upgrade for the P7). I love my Ortofon, but you've got me curious

 

Yes; it's $795. I have one now on an RP8. Dead neutral to my ears. Not the absolute best of anything that i have heard (I have heard rigs in my system four times that) but I can't really find any fault either. It all just comes across so naturally that i don't find myself critically listening anymore, just basking in the sound. I like that. I am so over critical listening at home...
-Bill

 

I like how you put that. I want the equipment to disappear as much as possible too. If I demo it at the shop, what's the latest Rega model that's closest to the P7 so that I get an approximation?

 

The Planar 6.
-Bill

 

Well, you could keep your current stage (is that the Graham Slee in your profile?) and add a couple step up transformers. If handy, you can get the Cinemag 3440A transformers for $90 each and put them in your own enclosure, or for a bit more buy one pre-assembled, there are some offered on ebay for pretty reasonable prices, around $300 or so. One almost new package on the Asylum Trader for $250 also. K&K audio has some Lundahl SUT kits that are very reasonable, and maybe a bit better sounding than the lower cost Cinemag transformers. Rothwell also has some nice Lundahl-based SUTs that aren't too expensive. Lots of ways to go without spending too much money. But of course, that extra signal boost isn't needed unless you do get a moving coil cartridge, and that step can get expensive pretty quickly

 

Don't do it, unless you are prepared to buy the P6. The new P6 sound signature is much closer to an RP8 than it has any right too be. . The RP8 is still better, but not much on cartridges that would find their way onto a P6. Have to give the RP8 a much higher spec cartridge and phono section to strut its stuff.

 

I have the P5 & a P3-2000. The P5 has the RB700 arm as well. The P5 is tricked out a bit with the Michell counterweight, a Benz Micro Glider, a Deep Groove Subplatter with a ceramic bearing and a TTPSU.

I will state the at the P5 completely slaughters the P3. The biggest improvement was the Subplatter. And it was the cheapest of the upgrades at about $100. I can't remember if the P7 had a metal subplatter, I know it has the ceramic platter. But, if you really want to do a comparison and it has the polycarbonate subplatter, I would have swapped that out to see what the P7 can really sound like.

 

But is your P3 factory or have you upgraded that as well?

The P7 has a metal subplatter. Not sure if it's steel or aluminum, but it's metal. I agree that the subplatter makes for a big improvement. It was the most pronounced change of all the upgrades I've made to the P3 (much more of a difference than the acrylic platter or the Michell Tecnoweight). The noise floor dropped considerably after I installed the new bearing and subplatter, and it left me with a wonderfully black background.

What's the sonic profile of the Benz Glider? I've never heard one but I've always been curious.

 

The Glider and the Wood are mostly quite neutral, maybe with a hint of warmth in the midrange and shimmer in the highs, depending on loading, but beautifully textured and very colorful when called upon to be so. Benz makes cartridges that are very easy to forget about, you just relax into the music. I'm a long time fan, and the Wood is under $1000 from some sources. Glider a couple hundred less.