Regarding VTA

I know this topic has been beat to death but I wanted to pose a simple question; if VTA is so important what did turntable/cartridge manufactures expect you to do when your turntable didn't have an adjustment for VTA? There were a lot of TTs in the early 70s when I bought my Philips 212 that didn't have an adjustment for VTA. No matter what cartridge you bought, especially what would have been considered higher end at the time, it could only sound so good since you wouldn't have any way to dial in VTA. Doesn't seem like cartridge manufactures would have wanted their cartridges evaluated on TTs where VTA couldn't be adjusted but probably represented what a lot of budding audiophiles had at the time. Any thoughts or not worth discussing?

 

One could change the VTF.

 

People often added or removed spacers under the cartridge, in fact, I think your 212 came with a jig to adjust the stylus position to within a certain range using spacers. But sure, it seems like there is a lot more discussion about it nowadays, with all the USB microscopes available, and the high cost of everything analog, people are trying to extract the most they can. I still doubt that most people bother trying to adjust it beyond a somewhat level tonearm tube.

 

Two things. First in the days when records were the everyday, everyman format for recorded music, there were hundereds and thousands of turntables made for decades and decades that were the equivalent of today's ipods and soundbars and bluetooth streaming devices -- they were cheap consumer products designed to be plug and play (not saying this is necessarily so with the Philips 212), so a lot of them were made with minimal user adjustment options. Second, with a table like that Philips and even with the Regas today -- they were designed to be used with other products from the company, so the Philips 212 came with a Philips cartridge that could be upgraded to another Philips cartridge and then the styli replaced when necessary also from Philips. Presumably the arm on that table and the cart were designed to be properly aligned when they worked together. And Philips was not interested in you trying to fit a non-Philips cart on the table.

 

Yes it did come with a clear plastic jig to align the cartridge within the head shell but not the spacing. I had thought about shims. Like you stated people appear to be talking a lot more about it now. Back then we were fairly content to live with whatever we heard with no thought to leveling tonearms or adjusting VTA. Most of my recollection of the topic of cartridges was just about changing them to something better but nothing about all the adjustments that are now capable.

 

I think that's probably true, and level is probably where the cartridge designer build the cartridges to be operated from to obtain the spec'ed VTA. And although I've found that small changes in arm height/VTA can make remarkably substantial sonic differences, I suspect the biggest problems back in the day came when you tried to change your cart from the factory supplied one -- which was how almost everyone outside of audiophiles bought their tables -- to one with a very different body size or stylus shape.

 

I think that is what actually got me to thinking about this; whether or not a level tonearm is necessary while playing a record to achieve a correct or close to it VTA. That wasn't going to be possible with a stock setup without a lot of playing with shims and even harder to make fine adjustment.

 

Not that it matters for this discussion, but I just checked the owners manual at VE, and it says to use spacers if needed to get the stylus tip about 1/16" below the top plate of the jig. Not sure if that is what you had, seems there was a separate plate that you mounted and aligned the cartridge on in the jig, and then slid that into the headshell, does that sound like yours? A few companies were doing stuff like that at the time, doesn't seem all that secure.

 

Makes sense and I'm probably overthinking this.

 

Yes that is correct. I misspoke about the shims. The plate the cartridge attaches to does slide into the head shell. You slide that plate into the jig which had a V notch that you used to set the stylus the 1/16" below. It also centered the cartridge and set the correct distance on the plate for the cartridge which I assume was setting the overhang and since the holes were slotted you could also set the correct alignment to a protractor though that was never mentioned.

 

It's been a long time since I looked at the instructions. I have to admit I don't remember the shims being supplied but they must have been there if they expected you to use them.

 

we've learned a lot since the end of the first vinyl era circa mid 80's or so. we were satisfied with the sound and didn't really fuss over it. there was not much competition and most speakers had big woofers and small tweeters and were lacking in midrange clarity so you may not have even noticed the sound of a different VTA setting. We focused on alignment and reducing IGD, proper VTF and anti-skat and that was it.
Now that vinyl has some serious sound quality competition, everyone is trying to get every last drop of performance out of their vinyl systems and there are ways that work. You mention VTA, what about azimuth? Did anyone even know what that was much less lave a turntable that could adjust it?

 

That sums it up pretty well. Regarding azimuth I don't remember hearing or reading about it and I had a few subscriptions to different audio mags at the time. If memory serves the big thing back then was the introduction of linear tracking turntables by a few reputable manufacturers as more closely resembling the proper cartridge alignment to the record groove due to the way records were initially recorded. That was the closest I remember being concerned about the needle tracking more accurately in the record groove besides what you already mentioned.

 

Actually stereo separation has always been an issue. In fact the old "Stereo Review" (Remember them?) test record, one of the best, has a very clever stereo separation test. However, on the test record instructions, at least, there is no information about how to increase/adjust that separation.

 

I´m not really sure I agree on that we know more now. I actually think it´s the opposite.

 

Now I am one of those older folks who have never had TT's with many adjustments. I guess that I kinda read and followed the directions, which was what most did, when setting up a new TT.

We are all well aware that there are and will be, constant changes in new technology, what many don't expect is the changes that are coming for older, pre-existing technology, such as VTA and azimuth.

I don't think that my restored Vinyl Nirvana, restored and upgraded Thorens TD-160 Super, has any of these adjustments, if it does, please make me aware of it. The tonearm is a Rega/Moth 202, with upgraded Cardas wiring.

I can understand the VTA being important, I can gather, by reading here, that it makes all the difference in the sound, as specially with certain sensitive cartridges and stylus'.

Per-your question, "what about azmuth?" I really don't actually know what it is, as it pertains to TT's. While, I could look it up, it is nothing that I have (or at least not aware of having), so, it does not rate high on my to-do list of concerns.

However, I will go out on a limb and venture a guess. Might it be the tilt of the tonearm/headshell from vertical (side to side)?

I'm just going on what my understanding of azmuth means. Plus, after the basic adjusts and VTA, I simply deduce, that there really isn't anything else to adjust. I mean, in our physical world, we really have only so many dimensions.

It is interesting to read that a manufacturer is commenting that their tonearms are accurate within 2% from tonearm to tonearm. which would lead me to expect both some real world measurements and listening by ear, for the final tuning.

 

You have a Rega arm, so no azimuth adjustment for you. VTA can only be adjusted by shims. If you bought your setup complete with cartridge, I have no doubt VN has it set up correctly. If you installed your own cartridge, you may want to contact VN to see if you need a shim. Rega is old school on adjusting the tonearm. They feel that the loss in rigidity compromises the sound more than any slight misadjustment. Right or wrong, that is their position.

 

VTA is mostly meaningless because records are different thicknesses and cutting heads are aligned differently. but for some people moving the tonearm up or down a few mm which only changes the angle by fractions of a degree seems to have night and day differences. ymmv.

 

My mileage varies quite a bit! VTA changes change the whole quality of the sound. The other day I raised the tail 2mm on my ART9 cartridge (2mm = 1/2 degree) and it was like a totally different sound. I was shocked. Greatly depends on the profile of the stylus.

With respect to different thickness of records the effect on VTA is negligible.

A 180gm record is only 0.73mm thicker than a standard issue vinyl.
0.73mm height difference equals a VTA change of 0.16 (16 hundredths of a degree) with a 10" tonearm.

 

Correct! Azimuth angle is the "tilt" of the stylus when viewing straight on from the front of the cartridge.

Test records and special meters can analyze the azimuth so that it can be adjusted to minimize cross talk between channels. Not there yet, it sounds fine by eye / and ear.

 

I don't own any tools, but with a mini bubble level, I have adjusted my azimuth and found my cross talk change somewhat but found my center phantom image change even more. It's difficult because it is recording specific and the only way for me to compare it is with the phantom image of a CD. I wasn't expecting such a shift in this respect though.

 

i've never had an experience remotely like this with vta and I have several cartridges and arms all of decent quality and type. subtle differences but that's it really.

 

My Dynavector is unlistenable without a 2mm shim on my Rega P3. Nothing subtle at all. Muddy and no highs.

 

Personally I believe the arm should be parallel to the record, the cartridge should also be parallel to the record. To change the VTF/SRA I change the VTF, if needed.

 

An Ortofon Quintet requires the spacer when used with a Rega tonearm. The Quintets are very tall with a flat bottom and a very short cantilever.