REL subwoofer added and WOW

after doing a lot of reading about the subject i finally decided that i should invest in a sub woofer. i had noticed that more and more i was listening to paul simon and similiar acoustic type music as apposed to my first love being rock i.e. led zep etc. i sort of came to this realisation when listening to ' the lamb lies down on broadway" classic's reissue, and taking it off half way. there was simply no bass underlying the music and so it had no impact.

now i had avoided sub woofers because of there boom boom reputation but did a little research and narrowed it down to a few producers such as REL and velodyne (and others whose names escape me) which seemed to mate well with fast speakers such as my apogee centaur minors. anyway i live in south africa so the choice ended up being the REL storm mark iii, which were a little pricy. anyway after some work setting them up (they are a sub bass sytem you blend them in below your speakers, i my case below 40 Hz) i am totally blown away. it adds richness to everything even the above mentioned paul simon and finally i'm back listening to the rock music i always loved so much. And of course you just can't help playing stuff that has great drumming. all i can say is if you are like me and find that the kind of music you listen to is dictated to by your equipment forget all the bad things you remember about sub woofers and try some out you won't be sorry.

the other great thing about them is that late at night you can listen to your music at much lower levels for the same level of musical impact.

 

oh one small negative, i must do something about my CD player as the golmund turntable has left it in the dust

 

This website might be of interest to you. It certainly sorted out my system I have a Rel Stadium II.


I had followed REL's advice on positioning but was never really happy until I read this article in Stereophile and it transformed my system.

www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/956/index2.html

JG

 

I've found the following to be best for integrating the sub with my system: a central position along the front wall between the loudspeakers at the same distance from the listener as the mid bass drivers on the main speakers. Moving it out further into the room hurts this integration. Don't forget to either spike the sub or isolate the sub from the floor, depending on how its vibrations interact with the rest of your components.

 

Every time I've tried a REL subwoofer in my system, I am amazed. Not with the bass (though it adds that back in) but with the overal sense of ease and dimensinality that the REL brings back to the music.

 

Not often that you hear from another Goldmund TT owner. I have a Goldmund Studio (with a T3F arm). I don't think you'll ever get comparable sound from a CD player. Enjoy the subwoofer.

 

I am now at the point where I cannot listen to my system without the sub. The volume is not up high to rock the house or anything like that. I just fill in the bass where needed. Normally it's set to 4 out of 100.

 

i will look at the stereophile article thanks.

yes the goldmund turntable is fantastic, i also have the same T3 arm. have you tried removing the suspension. i placed tennis balls (with some PVC tubing cut to hold them) under the plinth and was amazed at the improvement, of course you need to have good isolation for it to work.

the REL is actually siting in the front of the fireplace as i have wooden floors and this removes those vibrations but of course it may introduce other problems. i will have fun down the line trying to optimise things. it has taken me a while to get the cut off right because you have to move the gain arround at the same time. sometimes playing fairly softly it becomes more apparent what those gaps are.

once again last night i was taking out loads of records to listen to just one disapointment - bob dylan bringing it all back home (sundazed)- it improved the sound but hey there is just zip bass on that recording.

 

I think its interesting that you have wood floors and you chose to defeat the suspension on your turntable with good results. I have wood floors which are very springy and I was using a VPI table with suspenion. I recently removed the springs and replaced them with something more solid and noticed a huge improvement as well. I guess it is true that springy floors and suspended tables don't match well. I also have a Rel sub.

 

thats very interesting. actually if i started dancing in the room i would have a problem with the needle jumping but there is no doubt it sounds better. have you got the REL on the wooden floors?? i haven't tried that yet as i said i actually put it on the hearth of the fireplace.

 

I had the same revelation recently. Although I could only afford REL's poorer cousin PSB it was still a great improvement. An older article I read hit the nail on the head for me in describing good integration.
"It could be a riddle - 'What is it that you can't hear, but can make almost anything sound better?'. If you have a subwoofer, but can't work out the answer, you're probably doing it wrong;"
"Disconnect your main speakers and it'll seem strange to you that the almost imperceptible murmurings from the sub can make such a difference, but they do."

I was indeed suprised at how subtle the sub was, post integration, when I turned off my main speakers (prior to reading the article).

What HiFi article

I've not done this yet. Any household or easily aquired materials that'll do the trick Randy?

 

i really think more people should buy them, i wonder what effect they would have on regular monitor's that so many people have ie spendors etc

 

If I started dancing my table would still skip even with springs removed I am sure. That is not the real problem, however. Under normal playing conditions with a springy floor and spring suspension, the table is always oscillating. The effect of removing the springs was one of increased solidity and clarity of sound.

My REL is in a corner behind a chair, actually, and yes, right on the wood floor. It is rotated and angled "just so" to the walls to give the most seamless integration with my speakers (Sonus Faber Concertos). My crossover is set very low at 33Hz. You will find that if you set the output too high and/or set the crossover too high, the bass will walk all over the details in the music. It actually has more of an effect on transients like kick drums and on double bass when it is set on the "lean" side rather than the "tubby" side of things.

 

Not that I know of. The spikes would need to be attached to the sub (they are often supplied with the unit). These would work best on carpeted floors. On wooden floors, I've actually found better results with about 9 Navcom Silencers (Sorbethene pucks with aluminum outer rings) that stick to the floor and the bottom of the sub. That way the sub does not bounce or move.

 

Thanks Randy

 

I haven't tried defeating the suspension of the Goldmund TT. I've considered it from time to time (I've seen it suggested elsewhere) and may yet give it a shot. I'm a bit concerned about getting sufficient isolation if the suspension is defeated.

 

like i say the tennis balls work quite well because they give isolation as well as defeating the suspension. i had tried something else which did't work.

as for the REL yes i am still playing with the cut -off and gain. problem is i change volume levels quite a bit and then it doesn't seem quite right sometimes. or a new LP shows something up

 

A Happy Medium

You will drive yourself mad constantly adjusting (just like I nearly did).

I got some very good advice 'SET AND FORGET'

What I did was to play a record that had very little bass and one that had a lot of bass and
settled for a happy medium. Yeah occasionally I might come across a record that has too much bass (not very often) but I don't let that bother me.

It's a bit like setting VTA on your turntable, some LPs are very thin and some are 200gram
again I go for a happy medium between the two.

OOPS I hope I haven't opened another can of worms!

ENJOY!
JG

 

exactly i find myself changing it depending on the style of music. i put on "Dare" by the Human League and thinking hey there is too much bass so i adjust things (often gain and cut off) then i change to the white stripes "elephant" and i want it back.

i definately need to improve my CD player as it just isn't delivering anything close to the turntable quality which is strange as the CD player always was a little better in the bass department. i'm thinking i should look at the Benchmark DAC as my modded rotel has a digital out. just a pity that i won't be able to test it first.

 

This statement confirms that your sub is not yet properly integrated. Either it is not properly positioned or the crossover/output are not set correctly. Your speaker system should be pretty much source indepenent; just a "reasonably" flat canvas from top to bottom on which to paint sounds. Given a flat canvas, you can play a Mozart string quartet or the latest rap album and they should both sound really good, or at least close to how the mastering engineer heard it.

You are currently living in yo-yo land where you don't really know where ground zero is, either from record to record or even from cd to lp sources. I would strongly suggest getting everything set up using some cds as a reference since they have the best chance of giving you something approaching "flat". Once you have established a rock solid soundstage with real depth, deep extension (tight without flab or bloat), palpable images and all that good stuff then go on to lps. You may not like what you hear at first from your turntable but at least you are coming from the "flat" reference you determined with cds. From there it behooves you to tweak, adjust (VTA, VTF etc) and tune that table till it sounds better than any cd ever sounded, but Without Touching the Sub. I play 200 records to every 1 cd and this is how I arrived at the best sound I have ever heard from my table.

 

The only way you'll know it's set up correctly is to use a test CD such as the Rives Audio test CD($15?) which has test tones that you use in conjunction with a Radio Shack SPL meter($35).

Trust me, otherwise you will be adjusting it constantly and drive yourself nuts in the process.

 

I am very happy with my DD-15. It has an onboard digital correction system.

 

My Sonus Faber Grand Pianos go as low as 30 Hz. Should I set them as "large" and position my REL Storm 3 as low as possible? Or should I set them as "small" and try to tune sub higher?

 

In general, if I have a large floor standing speakers should I set em as LARGE on my multichanel amp and set the sub below them or should I set them as SMALL and experiment further?

 

Sounds like you have an Av receiver to drive your Grand Pianos (or an AV pre - your profile is unclear).

One of the great things about the REL subs is that you can set them up two seperate ways at once. In normal stereo music use, feed the REL from the speaker output of your amp and set the crossover as suggested by REL in their manual.

But you can also use the RCA input, from the sub out on an AV receiver, for home theatre use. This makes use of the crossover setting in your receiver.

In your situation, I'd look at running the sub in REL's preferred mode for music listening (your AV receiver should be set to "direct" or equivilent, keeping all of the nasty processing away from your music). In movie mode, set the receiver to feed the sub from the sub out socket. I'd normally set the main speakers to small, to keep the sometimes prodigious bass away from your Sonus fabers.