DCC Archive Remastering--whose ears can you trust?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by David Powell, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. David Powell

    David Powell Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Atlanta, Ga.
    It's a well-known hazard of the music business that over the years many rock stars have suffered damage to their hearing. So when you read about the latest remastering project, where someone like Pete Townsend or Jimmy Page is supervising or giving the okay on the results, you've got to wonder about how it sounds. In many cases, the players themselves are no longer able to hear anything close to a full frequency range. Many veteran engineers & producers probably suffer from some hearing damage also, George Martin comes to mind. So maybe what is truly needed in remastering is a fresh set of outside ears belonging to someone who can really hear subtle differences, such as the inestimable Steve Hoffman. What do y'all think?
     
  2. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    George Martin, bless his heart, has admitted that his ears are not what they once were, and he has retired.

    It's understandable that when an artist is in the unusual position of being in control of his product, he wants to have the final say about how it is remastered. And it's only human to deny that one's hearing is failing.

    But, yes, what a situation to be in. Let's say you are an artist with damaged hearing. Are you going to trust Steve's reputation, or trust a friend of yours instead, or maybe prefer a remaster that has the frequencies boosted that are in the same range where your hearing response is deficient?

    We all like Steve's stuff, but if you figure almost everyone else in the business masters differently than he does, and most people are happy with this other stuff, it's not an easy choice for a hearing impaired artist to make.
     
  3. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Well, everyone has a different situation when it comes to hearing loss. Some guys seem to maintain their hearing well into their old age. Some twentysomething guys can't hear for ****!

    Some engineers are ultra sensitive in the midrange frequencies due to hearing loss in the upper frequencies, so they also are likely more sensitive to tape hiss. Think of engineers who like NR. Also, engineers who like to spike the treble may suffer from hearing loss. Think Bill Inglot. Tom Moulton did a series of remasters for the Right Stuff label a few years back. Many of the titles suffer from massive compression and EQ.

    But I also wonder about all these music lovers who can't seem to listen to anything unless they're on headphones anymore. Just how loud are they playing those cans, and how much hearing damage have they caused as a result?

    Mmmmmm it makes me wonder...

    [ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Grant T. ]
     
  4. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member

    Location:
    HNL
    Are you taking to me? I said are you talking to me?
     
  5. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Makes me wonder, too.

    Some mastering engineers are so bad, it's a "wonder" that they are allowed to work on anything.

    Imagine if a DVD of an old movie like "Citizen Kane" were in the hands of a Bill Inglot, or Tom Moulton.

    The Video signal would be all one shade of gray. :mad:
     
  6. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Are we missing something here? What if you were an old rock & roller wanting to re-release your catalogue - remastered, of course, so it sounds better. More sales.

    Can you do it? What if you don't have the up to date knowledge of modern techniques? You have to go somewhere else to get the expertise.

    Your record company has a preferred - or in house - remastering studio that they insist you use - for a discount?

    What if you had complete control of your catalogue? What would you do? Where would you go?

    Here is your criteria. What studio has tons of experience? What stidio has up to date technology and has done everything from classsical to rock and lots in between?

    You know where I'm going, right?

    Peter Mew, Abbey Road.

    Now IF they did some investigating, they just may NOT choose Abbey Road. I think it's interesting (if true) that the next Tull releases are not done at Abbey Road.

    Can anyone confirm this?

    I wonder if IA listened to the previous releases and say.... Why don't these sound like the DCC releases?
    :D

    AND WHY DOES HE NOT CALL STEVE?!?!?!

    Sorry, getting a little carried away here...
     
  7. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    It's not only hearing, it's the playback chain they use and how accurate it is, without colouring, nothing too dull or bright.

    Also, a master tape can be made at one studio, and for some reason, the tape sounds horrible everywhere else.. But if you took that tape and ran it on its original deck, suddenly it sounds AMAZING (or as true to form to a shocking level).

    But your playback chain could sound overly bright, so you tend to steer away from a sound that's 'too bright' and toppy, then the rest of the world thinks it sounds too dull....

    Hearing is only a part of it, I'm afraid. Sometimes the other 1/2 of the archeology of uncovering the perfect master is getting some of the equipment it was recorded on.
     
  8. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Reminds me of a story I heard about when J Page was first remastering the Zep catalogue. He did a lot of work down in the US (California? Don't exactly remember where) and took the completed tapes back to England.

    When he got home, they sounded like ****. Apparently the studio monitor tweeters were blown. The tapes were re-mastered to compensate for the bad tweeters. He had to do it all over again.
     
  9. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Steve's personal reference is live sounds of real instruments. He likes to recreate that sound, of say, the realistic chime of cymbals. Some of these other guys may have very little experience or interest in the sound of live instruments playing. They could be going entirely for flavor, whatever it is they like, with little reference in reality. And if Steve's hearing dulls a bit, he can still know what those instruments sound like to him, and recreate that sound in the studio. Perhaps? Discuss. :D
     
  10. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Oh, come on, Pinknik!

    No offense now, but how can you be a remastering engineer with little experience in the sound of live instruments playing!?! That's like closing the financial books of a large corporation without knowing the difference between a current liability and a prior period adjustment.

    On the other hand, I think you have a very valid point. Steve reference is "real" or "live" music - a real guitar, for example. Others perhaps remaster music to sound like they *think* it *should* sound like. Didn't the Who redo their whole catalogue that way? :(
     
  11. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Hey, I think MOST (well, maybe just LOTS of) listeners haven't heard much in the way of REAL instruments. I've never been (sad to say) to see an orchestra play classical music. I have on only a couple of occasions heard a small jazz ensemble. Mostly it's amplified through ****ty speakers into ****ty acoustics, from bars to arenas. No reality going on there. The next generation of mastering engineers references will be Limp Bizkit played at 120dB in arenas and on bright, heavily limited Cd's and MP3's. :D
    Well, let's hope I'm wrong. . .
     
  12. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    I think you're confused. Andy Johns convinced Page to go to Sunset Sound to mix IV. They spent about a month in LA, then flew back to London and demoed the tapes for the rest of the band. The high-end was gone. No one is sure why, but Page thinks it was either due to the monitors at Sunset or something happened to the tapes on the way back from LA. He set about remixing the whole album at Island in London. He couldn't get the sound right on "Levee," however. He went back to the Sunset tape and found this song was fine on there. It is the only Sunset mix included on IV.

    [ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Patrick M ]
     
  13. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Some remastering engineers may just take the approach of reproducing what's there on the tape, period.

    I personally don't believe everything should be made to sound like it's 'live" or "real" because it may not have been recorded that way.

    Then there are the ones who want to make EVERYTHING sound modern. This is the approch I absoloutley hate! If something has, say, a 60's esthetic, I want the sound to stay in the 60s, not bring it into the millenium1

    Most remastering engineers are musicians, but I don't think that is a requierment for remastering.

    BTW, I'm a drummer so I also know what live music sounds like.
     
  14. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    No, not confused ... but obviously I was told an incorrect version of the story. So this was the ORIGINAL release master tapes back in 1974 or whenever!?!

    Wow - a really really incorrect story!

    That's what always happens when a story gets passed around. The truth gets mutilated.

    Thanks for the correct story, Patrick! :D

    [ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gary ]
     
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