Request to Speaker Manufacturers- Adjustable Voicing or Model Versions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Oct 2, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I love the sound of the KEF LS50 speakers.

    I can barely listen to the KEF R-Series (R500, R700, R900).

    The reason is that the "voicing", i.e. the frequency response of the LS50s are more to my preference wheelhouse. A slight forwardness to the upper midrange and lower treble region. Great for horns, vocals and electric guitars.
    The R-series floorstanders are bass heavy with reticent midrange and upper treble by comparison. Back to back comparisons really made this apparent. Not my cup of tea. But they easily could have been.
    KEF could have given adjustable voicing control in the crossover to make the R-series sound like an LS50 with deeper bass- as a switchable option- but they didn't.
    Or, they could have offered different versions of voicing for the R-series models. A "bright" version or a "warm" version, for example.
    It would be so easy- switchable circuits for resistors, coils and capacitors that would adjust levels and baffle step compensation and allow us to tailor to preference as well as room and in-room position. Heck, car audio aftermarket speakers have adjustable crossovers, why not home speakers?
    The crossover makes the sound and gives the speaker its character. Why not some adjustment options?
    I know that Vandersteen offers some flexibility as did many speaker makers in the 70's and 80's. But the choices today are few.
    Extra cost? Absolutely (but not that much). This is something I would really buy into.
     
  2. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    Nice thought, but......

    If it were possible to make a perfect speaker, they would, and that's the only one that would be for sale, ever. But it's not. That's why we have a hundred diffferent designs from dozens of manufacturers. Speakers are a matter of personal choice according to our personal preferences. And designing them is a matter of choosing the tradeoffs, then selecting the components and manufacturing processes to meet the chosen specs. It would not be cost-effective to manufacture a "mix and match" speaker system.
     
    Tullman likes this.
  3. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    You have Magnepan offering an easy way to tailor the amount of frequency energy you want. I have owned a couple models and always preferred an extra couple ohms in the tweeter path.
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  4. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    But I would pay for it. It would not cost that much more to have alternate crossover "paths" within the speaker wiring.
    Consider the function of baffle step compensation- a circuit within the crossover (usually an inductor, capacitor and possibly a resistor). The idea is to roll off frequencies above a certain level because the enclosure reflects them back to your ears if you don't. It greatly affects the sound signature and character of the speaker.
    It is critical because baffle step compensation is a judgement call, the designer tunes it to his preference and makes assumptions about room size and speaker position. The amount of compensation applied can be as little as 3db and as high as 10db! Imagine the differences in sound if a speaker rolled off frequencies above 1500Hz by 10db!
    Just give me a switch with a couple alternate settings- a couple extra baffle circuit paths within the crossover circuit.
     
  5. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    The old Koss line of speakers had those, I had the CM1030s

    Here is a pic of the 1020
    [​IMG]

    They were a novelty and failed over time anyway...still a great college/party speaker!
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  6. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I think you're looking too deep into this to be honest. The LS-50's are great, well designed speakers. The R series aren't. If they were, they'd sound as you (and I) would prefer them. I think they essentially cut corners to build around a price point, and the result is a boomy speaker.
     
  7. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    You might be right about the cost factor but when I look at the measurements- LS50 on top, R500 below- it seems as if these are based on decisions on how to present the sound. It was intentional for some reason.
    I'm not sure that a crossover to make the R500 have the same response curve as the LS50 would cost more.
    It seems like that dip in the midrange response of the R500 is there for a reason, possibly for the home theater market?

    [​IMG]

    http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18
     
  8. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I agree the bass heavy sound was an intentional design goal. I'm not sure I agree that they otherwise could have made a more neutral sounding speaker for the same price, but here I'll admit I'm going with assumptions more then any detailed knowledge of speaker manufacturing.

    It almost reminds me more of headphones, which are often a little too bright or a little too bassy, because one senses had they not tuned them in one direction or the other they'd simply be boring. I think it's likely easier to design a speaker with a little too much low end for some people then a good neutral speaker.

    Of course, this doesn't explain how they sell the LS-50 for $1500, or why they don't just make a $2500 floorstanding LS-50.
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  9. Bad Samaritan

    Bad Samaritan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Some active monitors have basic tone level controls built-in. For instance, my old Dynaudio Focus monitors had a passable set of adjustable filter levels, with more info in the manual regarding actual to x-over point & slope.
    [​IMG]

    They've scaled this back in the newer lines though, to only a treble level and a bass level adjustment based on speaker placement (it works surprisingly well, but I'd like to know more of what it actually does).
    [​IMG]
     
    CowFish and avanti1960 like this.
  10. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    My Revel M20s have controls to suit the listeners taste and situation. I run mine with the tweeter set at -.5 db.
    [​IMG]
     
    Manimal, CowFish and avanti1960 like this.
  11. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    This is a timely topic for me as I have a pair of Meadowlark Audio Kestrels That I have loved for years but always felt they could use just a bit more treble. I love the sound but have tried to replace them several times in the hopes of having their wonderful musical sound with a bit more resolution.
    The other day I pulled the bottom cover off to inspect the crossover. It is mounted outside the cabinet under a cover for safety. What I found is a 6 ohm resistor in line with the tweeter. My plan is to solder another 6 ohm resistor in parallel with the original to drop the resistance down to 3 ohms. This should bring a little more sizzle to the Kestrels. We'll see if I prefer it or not.
     
  12. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    I know. I built my first speaker when I was 11 years old out of a toy box and a bunch of TV speakers, with a feather pillow for stuffing and a hole for a "port". I built my first "real" speakers in 1979. In 1982 there wasn't any computer software for speaker design, so I wrote the programs for the Commodore. In the 90's I owned Lincoln Acousics. And I still use a pair of my Pleiades as studio monitors. So I know a little. Not a lot, but a little.

    What you suggest might very well be workable for a company that doesn't have budget constraints, but when you plan on building 5,000 speakers, you design it down to the penny. And if extra crossover components and design works out to $5.00 per speaker, and indeed it might, that's $25,000 you don't have to spend, and some companies just don't want to spend it.

    Rudy Bozak did his filter designs along the lines you suggest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
    avanti1960 likes this.
  13. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    I'd put in a switch to do that, so you can just switch it back out if you don't like it.
     
    timind and avanti1960 like this.
  14. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    My Acoustic Energy AE22 actives have trim functions for each speaker for HF, MF, LF and sensitivity, as per below:-


    [​IMG]
     
    CowFish and avanti1960 like this.
  15. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    As mentioned, this kind of feature is much more common in professional monitors, or integrated into external active crossover circuitry. It's much easier to do (and do well) at line level than at speaker level, hence its presence in active monitors which are more common in the professional realm. At home, your best bet is just to stick an EQ of some kind in your system if you want that flexibility.
     
    The Pinhead and CowFish like this.
  16. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    good luck with your experiment. you may need to add a shunt resistor to keep the rest of the circuit at proper impedence. see this link and search for L-pad calculator.
    http://www.bcae1.com/
     
    timind likes this.
  17. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I'm simply asking for alternate voicing options within the crossover. replacing one branch for another. it is very easy to do and do well.
    KEF could easily make a floorstanding version of the LS50. I'm willing to bet that there is corporate and marketing influences as to why they don't.
    The Reference series are basically re-voiced R-series dressed up in fancy enclosures. The LS50 is a carrot on the end of a stick.
     
  18. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Late to this thread but I have just seen the earlier post regarding the Koss CM line of speakers (1977-1984).

    These did allow for selectable sound shaping (mid, treble, tweeter, in the CM/1030) of +/- 3dB. ZWorked as designed. However it is part of the reason that they had some of the most complex passive crossovers ever used in a consumer speaker.

    I'm kinda the online go-to person for info and help regarding these speakers (all for free) and hundreds of Koss CM/1030, 1020, 1010 owners have contacted me over the years. Since I seed many such forums with this info, I really don't have time to check for PMs and posts in a timely manner. However if you send me an email at [email protected] I usually check for messages every day and respond as soon as I see them.

    Regards.

    Jeff Mackwood
     
  19. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Get a suitable amplifier, source components, and room. Enjoy the music, gripe less. The KEF is accurate, it reveals shortcomings. Fix them or choose a less revealing speaker.
     
    The Pinhead likes this.
  20. Blair G.

    Blair G. Senior Member

    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    Interesting subject for two reasons

    1. I share your opinion of the KEF R Series, otherwise I would have kept the R700's which I was getting at a great price.
    2. The speakers I did buy, the Amphion Argon 3LS, have added a feature just 4 months after I bought mine: a switch on the back with a "0" and a "+1db" setting.

    Now I have to decide whether to retrofit the feature to my speakers at a cost of $600
    Apparently some found the stock version a bit too bright (which I agree with) so the switch was added.
    I presume mine are the equivalent of the +1 setting.
     
  21. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I remember listening to all three models of the R series and thinking "gosh, these kinda suck". I don't think this could be fixed really, you just don't buy those speakers. If I had to guess I'd say they were probably aimed at the HT crowd.
     
  22. hesson11

    hesson11 Forum Resident

    As a classical-music guy who's very sensitive to brightly recorded violins, the thought of having a midrange control intrigues me. That's where most of the steeliness you often hear comes from, I believe. But today's preamps and the speakers that do have controls only use bass and treble adjustments.

    BTW, I used to have LS50s and thought they were fantastic, except for one thing. They had a very narrow band of brightness somewhere in area of the violin range that just stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Has anyone else noticed that? I've never heard anything quite like it in another speaker, in the fact that it seemed to be a very narrow band in the frequency response, but JUST in the right place to be troublesome to me. I'm a bit happier with my Harbeth C7s.
    -Bob
     
  23. basie-fan

    basie-fan Forum Resident

    I don't listen to much classical but I noticed the same issue apparent in the higher region of female vocals. I also went to a Harbeth, the P3ESR. It really does a great job with both female and male voices but of course costs more than the ls-50.
     
  24. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    I recall that Michael Green marketed 'tunable' speakers; around the same time his 'room tunes' were popular. :)
     
  25. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    agreed, they aren't that great. but they EASILY could be with some crossover tuning and the LS50 driver for midrange and treble. Think LS50 floorstanders. that's all i was asking for.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine